City Council Retreat Day 2, 1/27/2026

In accordance with Virginia Beach Code section 2-21 and by the authority vested in me as mayor of the council of Virginia Beach, I hereby call for a special meeting of Virginia Beach Council on Monday, January 26, 2026.

And today, Tuesday, January 27th, 2022 6, beginning at 8:30, Virginia Beach Convention Center, 109th Street, Sweet 3. The purpose of the meeting is to uh conduct a city council retreat as listed in attached and published agenda.

The special meeting will be broadcast on cable TV, virginia.com, and Facebook Live. Sincerely, Bobby Dyer, mayor. Okay. Thank you. Good morning.

Good morning, Mr.

And once again, compliments on both of you and your entire staff, uh, you know, for the presentation yesterday. It was beyond excellent.

Thank you, mayor. Thank you. I appreciate that. Staff worked really hard in putting all the information together in collaboration with all the city departments that helped uh gather the information. So, I really appreciate that.

Um, so, Mr. Mr. Mayor, I'm just going to do a quick overview of the agenda for today, quick recap of what we did yesterday and then pivot to talk about dedications this morning. So, um the yesterday we talked about the budget a lot and you all gave some preliminary budget guidance to the staff so that they can work on the budget to meet your guidance. We've got a few of the notes

still on the wall, but um process-wise, staff is going to come back with an opportunity for you during the budget hearings to have more meaningful conversations. And so presentations um will probably be shorter to start with with a whole lot of information in your packets so that there'll be more time for you to focus on conversations um with revenues and expenses and CIP.

you heard the presentations and gave some preliminary feedback as well for the conversations or the the budget development. Um so nothing totally finite at this point but enough uh guidance for the staff to move forward.

Uh today we're pivoting and talking a little bit more about dedications and speaking of um super staff work. This was a request late yesterday and they were able to pull information together today. We'll then talk a little bit about different roles of the governing body and do something a little different than just presentation and then we'll have governance discussion on a variety

of topics. So that's the plan for today and we plan to adjourn no later than so with that I'll turn it over to director. Absolutely.

All right. Good morning, mayor, vice mayor, members of council. Good, good to see you again today. Uh, credit for pulling the presentation together so quickly goes to uh, deputy director of budget Katie James. Um, she took all the information and put it in this digestible format to begin the conversation discussion of dedications, which city council um, request a deeper dive on yesterday. We had some

preliminary information um in your packet for discussion for context, but this will allow lot allow for a little bit more granular look at that information. Uh so this slide here provides a summary of the dedications uh kind of working down top to bottom um and left to right. The outdoor initiative uh it's a dedication that was established and you see in second column 1990. The dedication generates about

$3.9 million a year and that's generated from a point 47 cent uh real estate tax dedication. So this is specifically for the purpose of funding um three or four CIP projects in the parks section of the CIP documents such as tennis court renovations and replacements. Um, I happen to know for a fact that Parks Rec has requested additional funding in the upcoming CIP process for further

discussion as we're developing the city manager proposed budget as there's a maintenance backlog in these existing um areas of need within the parks infrastructure system. So, um there's likely uh not much capacity for discussion and redirection from there.

uh the parks and recck special revenue fund dedication. We talked to this um at pretty good length yesterday about how the dedication to the parks and rec special revenue fund a 3.467 cent real estate dedication is primarily for the operation um repair and maintenance of the existing rec centers throughout the city. Um the tourism investment program or the tip fund is established in 1993.

It's a larger dedication totaling $56 million, but is comprised of different components such as a 5% dedication of the hotel tax rate, $1 per room night of the $2 uh flat night fee charged, 80% of the admission tax, 5 cents of cigarette tax, and 1.06% of the meals tax is all dedicated to that fund. There's quite a bit of infrastructure um needs and planned use of that in future years. So the overall projection

of is pretty lean in the out years with some of the obligations coming on. It's a heavy uh utilization. It relies on a lot of program or it's intended to be the bill payer for a lot of program debt for various CIP projects.

Uh the Sbridge special service district this is was established in 1994. Total dedication amount is about 6.1 million.

That comes from a 6.5% hotel dedication, $1 per room night of the flat tax that is generated within that geographical boundary. And there's additional s real estate search charge tax of 1 cent. And I'll talk a little bit more about Sandbridge on the next slide. The economic development investment program or reference to EDIP. Uh this is a dedication from 16 cent equivalent of the cigarette tax rate generated about

$1 million a year and this is transferred to a CIP project for utilization and economic development to provide performance grants and in citum grants to the business community.

the ARP program. This has been discussed at length in previous years. In fact, um last year as a part of the adopted budget, city council redirected a.3 cent of this dedication um to support the newly established major project fund.

The remaining amount dedicated to this fund is a6 cent or excuse me, yeah, 6 cent of the real estate tax um rate and generating just under $5 million a year.

The open space fund um was established in 1995. Uh this again was one of the dedications that was redirected or partially redirected last year in the establishment of the major project fund.

The remaining amount dedicated to the open space fund is a.17% of the meals tax rate generating about $3.2 million a year.

The TAP program or the tourism advertisement program uh again established 1996 generated generates about $17.9 million a year and that comes from a collection of various tax dedications 1% of the hotel tax $1 per room night um minus the $1 per room night that's generated dedicated to the Sandbridge SSD and a.5% meals tax dedication. The central business tiff uh central business district town center

tiff was established in 1999. Total amount generated 11.2 million. This is um the amount that is generated as a result. We had a pretty good discussion yesterday about the calculation tiffs and how that occurs of the amount that is generated within the tiff. A reminder that city council dedicated or redirected 40% of that annual revenue over to the establishment of the major project funds which again

we um just discussed in pretty pretty lengthy detail yesterday. The flood protection bond referendum fund. So this is one of the newer dedications and the intention of this dedication is a for to provide a sustainable bill payer to support the bonds and the debt service associated with the $567 million bond referendum. That's equivalent to a 4.1 cent real estate dedication or about $34

million a year. And then the major project fund, the newly established uh dedication with the adoption of the current year's operating budget. And that includes a.3 cent real estate tax dedication and a 77% meals tax and then obviously as I mentioned the 40% um transfer from the surplus of the town center tiff.

So in looking at these um to provide a quick overview of the funds that potentially have capacity for discussion and consideration.

So what staff did is they took uh a look at the dedication amount as a percentage of the overall fund balance um at the year end of FY25.

So working down the list, I noted that the outdoor initiative has additional needs. the parks and recck special revenue fund. As discussed yesterday, there's a plan and utilization for that and there any redirection of that dedication at this point in time would delay the recapitalization of the three oldest facilities.

The TIP program or the tourist investment fund again there's a lot of um projects that are in the work that there's going to be a substantial increase in the future debt service associated and the expected bill payper for that will be the TAP fund. So there's there's a programmed and planned use for the capacity that's in that fund at this point in time. This Samber Special Service District, this one's

highlighted different color um because it looks substantial, right? Looks like 10 or 1,07% of the year's actual um dedicated revenue. So the reason for that is that there's a policy in place that two sand replenishments within the Sandbridgeidge are to be funded at all times. So the reflection here is not only the fund balance of the special service district fund, but also the two CIP projects that are fully funded.

That's what equals that $61.5 million.

And we'll know more um whenever we get a sense of the upcoming sand replenishment as to what the um overall needs long-term are for that fund once we can reset the base, but I'll get into that in a little bit.

the economic de development and investment program. Again, it's a million dollars, but it just so happens the dedication this is associated with is cigarette tax, which is a declining revenue source naturally over time. So, there's little capacity for discussion um for consideration without impacting the number of grants that economic development's able to award through this program. In the red are three

dedications that we've had um discussions about in the past or two of them in particular. The ARP, the Agricultural Reserve Program, the Open Space Fund um and then another one, the Tourism Advertisement Program. You might notice that each three of those have a um considerable fund balance as a percentage of the annually generated revenue.

So the ARP there was a discussion um and we redirected a portion of that as well as the open space in the current year.

However, the tip tap fund um was not one that has been discussed for redirection um as of recently and I'll get into that one in just a little bit. The central beach district tiff that was one that was redirected or partially redirected and adoption and establishment of the major project fund. We obviously know the flood protection program has needs beyond um the existing authorized bond

referendum. So there there's intended intentions on using um the dedication beyond uh just servicing the existing debt but as a multi-generational ongoing u billpayer in future years. And then the major projects, there's limited capacity as that's newly established and there's a planned use of all those funds.

So little nuances about the Sandbridge SSD. Uh there's three components that I want to talk about. the one cent real estate search charge. That really is a search charge associated with the SSD, meaning there's a tax rate above and beyond the citywide real estate tax rate charged to the residents and homeowners within that area. There's also an additional 1.5% hotel tax that's applied

to that district directly associated with the enhanced services of the beach replenishment.

5% of the hotel tax and the $1 per room night flat tax. Those are from the citywide tax rates and those are policy decisions being directed and dedicated to that initiative. Um that is a city council policy level discussion and that was based on the needs of the sand replenishment and the schedule.

So again the city practice is to ensure that two sand replenishment projects are fully funded at all times. Uh the amount program within the CIP is about $53.2 million. So there is in fact two that are fully funded. Um the unknown at this point in time is if the US Army Corps U will meet its match obligation or the intended match obligation and um of $22 million.

That's what's anticipated. However, it has not been appropriated and actually hit the books for utilization.

We'll know more after the next sand replenishment occurs in 2026, but there is discussion um in the future and we'll have a better sense of what the baseline costs of these sand replenishments are after this next one occurs.

Agricultural reserve program. So, this is one that's been discussed um in recent years. Uh to date, there's been over 11,000 acres that have been purchased. Again, the current dedication um after the redirect in the current year was 6 cents of the real estate tax.

The um fund has maintained a healthy fund balance and is anticipated to maintain a healthy fund balance. The discussion and the planned use is in the modeling is purchasing around 300 acres a year annually. Right now, the modeling of the fund will allow for that if that is the goal to continue to purchase 300 acres a year. Um there is a map included in front of city council and I think one

of the discussion points um last year or or something that I heard referenced was an update status on you know an evaluation as to whether the original goal has been met. I believe the original goal whenever it was identified as a need within the city was that there were 20,000 acres in the um agricultural reserve program or below the green line for potential consideration that need to

be preserved long term. So the city's been able to acquire about 11,000. Um, but there could be time for uh determination or or further exploration of how close are we to actually accomplishing all of it and purchasing all the acreage needed or that the city is realistically going to be able to um secure in this volunteer program. Again, it's a map. It's a pretty thorough map uh that allows um a visualization of the

city owned parcels, the parcels that are enrolled in the ARP identified marshland. And so it's just a good uh resource to use for policy discussion and decision- making in the future.

The open space fund, I mentioned the um the high level, the what what it's for, the balance and the fund balance of it.

Um, so for some additional context, uh, the specific intent of this dedication is for the preservation of land that's been identified as a candidate for future recreational amenities. There's been around 3,000 acres that have been purchased to date. In front of city council is um, a reference as to the the land acquisitions that have occurred through the use of this dedication over the years.

For additional context and background, there was a brief period of time when the open space dedication was being directed towards parks infrastructure maintenance and um buildout efforts in FY23. The open space fund and the dedication was pulled back to the original purpose which was for the intent of securing and purchasing the land. So, as of right now, that's the policy direction and the um planned use

of the open space dedication is specifically for the acquisition of future properties.

And the last one to talk about that was in that um red section is the TAP fund.

So this dedication is specifically used for tourism advertisement efforts um and operation of the city's visitor information center. There are some FTEEs that are um funded through this dedication within the convention visitor bureau's operating budget, but the majority of this annual program funding is specifically for advertising efforts.

And I do believe there's been discussion within um CVB. The intent is with the outofmarket advertising efforts that the city undergoes trying to secure and pull draw draw people in from outside of the region. And so that's the quick rundown of the dedications um within a one day turnaround, but we can certainly u continue to explore more provide information as directed by council if

there's a desire to inquire anything else about the dedications.

Any question? Okay, Stacy Worth.

I once again I'm not going to hold you to this.

We've heard that before.

Okay. So, under the um ARP, uh the goal is to purchase 300 or to acquire 300 acres a year and under the current market conditions approximately what what is the cost of that you know given the stripes that we have to buy and um I know depending upon the market value of the land. I'm going to have to follow up on that one because it's determined by the interest that um of the purchase

price of the strips at any given time and it can fluctuate. Um so looks like Katie's got something good.

I can tell you what we budget for them.

Okay, it's about $15,000 an acre and that's what we budget and we budget higher than it normally costs.

So it' be $4.5 million.

Yeah, we budget more than we Yeah, purchase. Typically, we budget for 300 acres right?

We typically purchase maybe 100 on average about 150.

But every year is different, right? It depends on properties in the queue because it's a voluntary program and you could have a year of 400 or 500 um and then a year of 100 the following year.

Okay. But ballpark, you're budgeting basically like $4.5 million a year.

Okay. Thank you, Worth.

Thank you, Mayor D. Thank you, Mr.

Shell. Um, for the presentation and Katie, for putting this together, and I just I'm glad we're having this presentation and discussion. I don't have any agenda other than to take a look at where we all are on the both the fund balances and the the how we build up each fund, you know, from the cigarette tax or from real estate tax and etc. So, I just have two questions

and maybe a comment as we a followup on the Sandbridge SSD. Can you clarify uh two of those if you could pull that back up, Kevin? Thank you. Um on how you build that up. The first one uh you had the real estate search charge 1 cent and then the two following the additional 1.5% hotel tax and the retains 5% hotel tax. Is that from hotels citywide or just in Sandbridge?

Uh so it's the amount that's generated within that.

It's also good that some of these are also general assembly direction. Is any of these general assembly direction? So the um the authority for the hotel tax to be searchcharge hotel tax to be dedicated for the purposes of sand replenishment is specifically laid out in um by the state as an authority to charge this. Um the 1 cent real estate falls under any authorized SSD um capacity that a locality could implement.

the the 5% um is collected from so the city has a 8% citywide hotel tax rate. Um so in Sandbridge district 9.5% is is the tax rate. So it retains um 6.5% and then the 3% that goes back is 1% goes to the TAP and 2% to the general fund. And so it does retain um the equivalent of 6.5 that's generated within that geographical boundary. And that actually um comes from uh the 5%

dedication that's in the TIP fund. So whenever we're doing a estimate of the tip fund dedication, which is 5% of the total citywide tax base or tax rate that's generated, um the tip fund gets that allocated there and then netted out of that is the 5% that otherwise would be generated or is estimated to be generated within the Sandbridge district. It used to be a transfer but Gazsby regulations changed that policy

and how that and so we have to estimate the revenue directly within the funds.

Thank you. Um so just and then another followup on the tourist advertising program aka TAP fund. It's a healthy balance. At the same time I just um notified Miss Helman our CVB director.

she might want to come forward, but we spend 12 or 15 million dollars a year on advertising and salaries and that helps pay for our CVB office. So, um I just want to make that comment. She may want to clean that up in terms of the amount.

Uh so, any one looking at the tap fund, please be aware that we that's we need that. And then switching over to the tip fund, the tourist investment program. I just want to remind everyone that $800,000 a year, and if you could confirm this, Kevin, $800,000 a year for the next four years at least, but at least in this next budget is going to go to the general fund from the TIP fund.

Is that correct? Um so two years ago whenever city council um lowered the real estate tax rate there was an agreed upon um sharing across some of the dedications and so the implementation of that instead of reducing um the dedications to each specific fund they reduced the cost burden to the general government and so for a 5-year period of time. The TIP fund picked up um project costs that historically have been the

general fund such as the oceanfront reinvestment um project uh and the um amphitheater recapitalization or parking lot maintenance project. Um some of the other funds did as well. The tap fund was was a sharing um cost burden of that and it picked up a project or a contribution in the form of payo. So, there were several of those and I can provide that information as to what that

plan was um if city council would like to be familiar with that as well.

Okay, we'll go with Barbara Cash, Josh, and Hutch.

Regarding the Sandbridge SSD, um that's probably one of the smartest things we ever did. uh when you look at what's happening down at the Outer Banks with those houses falling into the ocean. I remember at the time we were talking about whether we were going to do this project in Sandbridge.

North Carolina was talking about whether they should do something for their district, their oceanfront. They chose not to. We chose to develop this SSD and it to me it's one of the smartest things we ever did because Sandbridge does not have to compete with the oceanfront or with the rest of the city to get the money to do their sand replenishment. They're paying for it.

And when it started out, the real estate tax sir charge was much more than 1 cent. What was it? 10 cents, 12 cents, something like that. It was 12.

And we we simply retained the one cent so that the people would have skin in the game because what happened once we had this program and the and the ocean the the sand was guaranteed the property values went way up. And so it's really paying for itself. And Sandbridge is carrying the weight for its sand. And and I think we certainly do constantly need to review all of our funds to make sure they're doing what

they were intended to do and that they are funded appropriately.

Uh but this fund is really amazing and and has done so well.

So we have adjusted it before. We may want to make some adjustments again, but this is something that is and to to require that we keep enough for two emergency uh sand replenishments is so smart.

So, this this fund is something we really want to uh make sure we don't upset in any way because Sambridge is carrying its own weight.

Okay, you're going to go cash. Josh Hutch, good morning. Thank you for your presentation. Just a question on clarity and really uh breaking down uh what it means for the cigarette t tax dedications.

Um, it says cigarette tax dedications are dispersed to the economic development investment program for the general public, for um the working class, what does that mean in terms of dispersement?

And if cigarette taxes uh the revenue generated from them has been going down, then hasn't that greatly affected whatever dedications they were dedicated to?

And what are those dedications?

Not that I mean I'm not holding like Stacey says.

Yeah. No, it's it's it's okay. So the the general fund uh receives I believe 54 cents of the total 75 cent cigarette tax dedication. The um EDIP or the economic de uh economic development investment programs a 16 cent um dedication and then the tip fund receives 5 cents of that dedication. So it's those three funds. It would be the base um general fund, the EDIP program and then the tip fund.

I I think what I'm trying to say thank you for that. Um but where do they go? Like I understand the the like for instance human resource but in human resources you have several department that they are funding um mental health wellness that sort of subtopics is that information could I uh be made um available that information because I just don't know where it's going. like Virginia Lottery says they donate some

of the the earned money going to public schools. Well, that was good for the working class because we we understood that. I don't know if we see that, but we at least we we understood that. For me, I'm just trying to understand in what brackets does that fit in so that I can better understand where the cigarette tax that dedication is going. and maybe we can um

I I I'm I would like to look at uh the cigarette tax dedication. I think that that's something that needs to be looked at uh a little more thoroughly. Thank you.

Uh the vice mayor would like to address your comment.

So it's investment fund, but it's also an incentive fund and economic development uses that money to help bring in businesses to the city. So there's a whole formula of, you know, how many employees you're bringing in, what's the salary levels, and so the higher the salary levels that come in, the more of an incentive you get, and then also the capital improvement. So the uh development authority pretty much

monthly and Michael can add to this if he'd like to. They figure out what these different levels are and with the form it's a formula and they make recommendations to the development authority to get these businesses to come to Virginia Beach or to expand in Virginia Beach. So it's it's investment but I also think it's an incentive program. So that's where the money goes.

Okay.

Michael, did you have a comment? Yeah, let me just say this too. Every city is competing out there and they are given, you know, sometimes even more lucrative inducements to come. Uh, but once again, as we were talking yesterday and Worth and I have talked about this at Nauseium, uh, that we got to, you know, increase our percentage of commercial, uh, you know, and to help get the, you

know, the burden off the residential Okay, Josh and then Hutch.

Thank you, Mayor. And um thank you, Kevin, for um and and uh Kaitlin for putting the information together so quickly. Um I just a couple questions about the Aggra Reserve program, and I just want to make sure I understand it correctly. So, it is 6 cents of the real estate tax. Um currently, there's 26.6 million in fund balance.

Um 5 million is budgeted for FY27.

Um most recently there was 3.2 million of the most recent allocation that was unexpended. Correct.

And that 3.2 million any unexpended amounts rolls into fund balance and stays in ARP. Correct.

Correct. Um that 5 million is meant notionally to budget for 300 acres per year. Over the last 10 fiscal years, we've purchased on average 150 acres a year. Um did any of the ARP come to help balance the budget for that 5-year temporary time frame? um or do was the ARP invaded at all for either the major projects fund or to help balance the budget? the so last year there was a 3 cent um or

a.3 um cent of the real estate tax dedication redirected from ARP to the major projects fund and the ARP fund was one of those funds I previously noted similar to the tip where there was a reduction of the general fund um cost burden for a 5-year period. a portion of that was redirected to support um a CIP project.

Okay. So, previously there was.9 cents of the real estate tax and there was a seven roughly $7.5 million annual allocation. So, a third of what had been allocated came to the rescue, so to speak, for a 5-year um breather for the budget. Um, I guess my question is, um, how much do we need in fund balance to safely cover our obligations and then to take advantage of emerging opportunities to acquire additional

property because if I'm just looking at I mean, you know, and I'm not questioning the value of the egg reserve program by any means because I think it was it's been extremely successful. Um and it's it's a growth management tool and um and I think it it it helps ensure that that we have farmers and farmland um you know in in the future and we preserve our rural heritage. But um but

to have that kind of latent capital just sitting there um is is is just especially if we're making difficult decisions otherwise. I mean what's the right number? Is it 26.6 million? Is it 20 million? Um, does all of the unused or unexpended amounts do do those need to continue going in to fund balance or you know so I'm I'm just kind of trying to figure out if this if this allocation is right sized you know

considering you know the other things that the other competing priorities we have council member it just depends on the assumptions and in the attempt intent right if the 300 acres don't materialize size a year, then you're correct. It will just continue to grow a fund balance. Assuming that 300 acres does occur each year, there would be a slow draw down on the fund balance in a sustainable manner. So, it really just

depends on on the policy of of the council and is is that the right assumption to to make? Is that the goal?

Uh, is that is that what city council would like to have as an open-ended possibility? Um, it it can just it can change vary quite a bit in terms of if that materializes or doesn't materialize.

Except Kevin, you're also the last bullet there. You're basically saying if we bought 300 acres a year, fund balance alone could go another 24 years.

Is that take into account the balloon payments that occasionally happen when you have to cash up as well? So correct, it's it's a pretty healthy fund, right?

You know, and I think um and that's one of the reasons why council got comfortable with us redirecting a portion of it as well. You know, there are there are a couple of these that have a good fund balance that as we look at the budget to address some of um the CIP needs that council talked about, you know, could possibly be opportunities for redirecting some of those to help cover, you know, new CIP priorities.

Okay. Hutch and Stacy.

So, Kev, can you pull up the the one where you had the red box and the yellow box? Yeah, that one. So, I'm going to keep with the ARP program here for a minute because you and I have talked um a little bit more about this over time is is in the past is is that okay, so and Katie was helping us with this is we're looking at to me to look at it to

keep the 11,000 acres and the balloon payments. I'm so glad. Thanks Josh.

Everything you asked really I think helps give clarity.

My my suggestion question is is that with when we're looking at 300 acres and we're only buying 150 for an average is and then but you I believe you told me I don't want to put words in your mouth that you have to plan for 300 and that's why this thing is still growing because y'all have to be thinking about that. So if we change that number to that what is actually the average

150 whatever that is. I'm not trying to say that part. Then and then you set the balloon payments and you set everything else. Then that's going to give us a true picture of what the the money is that's available because we're sitting here talking about we haven't said a whole lot about the flood mitigation and the money that we owe and um employees and and giving some back either either

through the the personal property or through the uh real estate.

Real estate. Thank you. I'm trying to give you I know I can't even say it. So I'm sorry Stace I was trying I've said many times we'll sit around the fire department table and argue fuss and fight but in the end we're working towards a common goal. So and that's to save the taxpayers some money. So, um, my my point though, as I hope I've made it, is is that the with the program at 533%

you don't have to be an accountant to know that that's that's way better than healthy. So, so right is is so that but it helps it helps. Yeah. Is is that if we could use some of to rightsize it.

I'm not in any way saying to do away with the program or not keep it where it is, but if we're only getting 150 acres a year on average, then why not just figure for that so that we can have that to use.

Do you want to say anything cuz I got more.

I I I was just going to I had some coffee this morning. I'm ready to roll. It You're on a roll, Hu.

Is it related to the acorage? Your your next thing?

Nope. Going on to something else. uh just so there's never been a restriction on the amount that can be enrolled annually and so the 300 is a window to to build in that what if they come um Katie might be able so whenever it was the program was established I think within the first couple of years um in my mind I'm thinking there was like 8,000 acres.

Well, anyway, while she's figuring that, my point is is exactly that is we got it can't be that open-ended is not good.

Let's set the number and this is what it is. And if you don't get in on the first 150 acres this year, then you get it next year. Go on a list, you know, or then we'll re-evaluate and go, well, we can do another 100 acres. You could come to us for a special sign off or whatever. You know what I mean? is is like I just think it's handicapping us

and not not that it was intentional but just that that's what's happening. You being the budget guy, you got to keep the money to make sure that it's safe.

Well, if that number is 10,000, then how do how do you know? I mean, it can't be good for you to do that, right? For you personally. I'm saying that's just not good. So to me, that's where we should look at it and tighten the constraints some. Keep the program solid as we can, but just tighten the constraints on what you have to budget for so that we can

use some of that to put to other very good programs or salaries, you know, whatever.

If that's the direction, we can we can run scenarios doing that for city council's consideration.

I mean, I would like to see that if possible, just at least look at it.

Okay. Um then the other ones is anything that's over a 100% you know to me uh should be at least looked at as to how do we want to maybe maybe reappropriate on any of those. You know I I agree uh I agree with Miss Henley and I like to go to Sandbridge.

So I'm I'm I'm really appreciative of that. But is there something there that we can use a small portion of it for something simple? Can we do something else for Sandbridge with it? You know what I mean? Is there some ways that we can create the other to make the road safer going in or, you know, uh I'm just saying like something where we could put the money to use that's down there. Um

not not take away from the citizens money. I'm I'm not saying that at all.

Want to be real clear about that. But the hotel portion, maybe we could use it for something else down there. I'm just throwing out ideas. Please don't fill my inbox with that. I'm trying to do away with it. That's not what I'm not what I'm saying. Um, so and then it really that applies to any of the three that are in the red for sure. The open space, the uh I know I know Councilman Remick

has said, you know, the TAP fund gets used for other things and I appreciate that. And it's got a lot of revolving and it's making money. It's almost like for for layman it's almost like an enterprise fund, right? I mean it's it's money is coming back to us. So I'm I understand that. But for the rest of them, I think we should be able to look at and and do some right sizing.

Thanks.

Hey, uh Stacy, if it's okay, Barbara had a concern with that.

Well, with both of these programs is the Sandbridge SSD and the A reserve program. both were created for specific purposes and the original and the funding was particularly done for that particular purpose. So everything is not just real simple. If we're going to do anything with either of these projects, certainly review them. I mean, that should be true of everything to make sure it's in line,

but we have to really look to see if all of the things that have to be considered with these programs are considered. And as you said, I mean, if we have some additional funding that we want to uh use from the Sandbridge SSD uh to use for Sandbridge, I think that's something we could discuss with the community. Uh, but I keep hearing uh folks at Sandbridge say, "Well, when is uh uh

when are these other beaches in Virginia Beach going to start paying for their sand instead of it coming out of the general fund?" So, we do have to realize that these programs and the and the tax that was originally set for each of these programs was done specifically for that purpose and that's what was sold to the public. The same with the a reserve program. We've already reduced it to

from one point down to where it is now.

And so we do need to review from time to time to make sure it is in line, but we have to make certain that we are not compromising the program uh from what it was originally intended. And you know, like I say, these numbers when you're looking at the ending of it, it's one thing, but you have to know everything that went into that amount before you can do that. Yeah.

I mean, as far as looking at other things that uh could be done uh with funds from Sandbridge that has to do with sand, I think that may be something with the SSD that it would have to involve sand. It couldn't just be a road because of the legalities. So, I I think we can look at these things and we should look at them.

Yeah.

But uh but very carefully so that we don't upset the program to start with.

Yeah. Thank you, Stacy. Thank you for your patience. Stace, thank you. Um, again, not attacking the agriculture reserve program because I believe in it and I think it does great things, but we've been buying 150 acres a year and we're we're funding that at double that rate.

and we have so many other needs in the city. We have a huge reserve.

So, getting specific, taking what Councilman Schulman and uh Councilman Hutchinson have uh I guess alluded to if I'm not speaking for you, but speak up.

But I would propose that we take the rate from 6 cents in the egg program, take it to.3. That would half the amount of money going in there, but that would fully fund any the 150 acres that we've been buying.

Should the opportunity come up, uh, we have plenty in the reserve to be able to fund any unforeseen, uh, windfall that we may get the opportunity to buy. take that.3, dedicate it to a another specific CIP, whether it be Indian River Road or something that we're um close to getting uh on board with so that we can get some of the CP CIP off of the books and complete it instead of just having it

sit in the bank in the ARP program. And in my and in my opinion, that does not do any detriment to the ARP program.

There's plenty there, more than we're going to use in the next 10 years for sure.

Allows us to move forward with some CIP that we desperately need. I would also uh think that we're not buying a whole lot of open land and we have money sitting there doing nothing. Yeah.

Again, I'd like to take that the um open space fund, move it to the um out to the outdoor initiative where we could use that money for uh action sports and the I and the ITA and get going on some of that. I think that we could take that money, move it up, and use it for uh the cross country course that I was alluding to yesterday, that we could build a

world class cross country course in the ITA uh in land that's not in conflict with any of the other land that is under discussion. we can get moving forward on that and show that we show what our intent is in that ITA that we do have the intent to take a a good portion of that and use it for action sports and get moving forward on some of these things. So that would be that would be

my proposal on on both those items and I I think that goes a long way to um it does no damage to the ARP and the uh open space I think uh putting our open space to use for the public is a great use of that money and that's where we could do it in the in the ITA and the action sports and keep you know even before all of our gazillion studies are

done. We can get started on this. That's lowhanging fruit. That's something that would be a tremendous benefit for the city, for the region, and uh it it does nothing to harm open space because all we're doing is improving open space, and it does nothing to harm the AR ARP.

I think that's a pretty good idea. We're going to go Josh Jennifer Cash.

Thank you, Mayor. Um, and just to follow on, um, Councilman Cummings, um, whether, you know, I don't know what the right rate is. I mean whether it's.3 6 or somewhere in between um but but I think you know another piece of it is you know if it if it isn't if it isn't reduced to something like a.3 then and it's looking at the that rollover you know with an unused amount

that it just rolls right into fund balance and it's never seen again until until it's needed some at some point to be determined. So I mean even the ratio of what that rollover is say 25% of it goes back into fund balance 75% of it goes back goes into some other thing and I agree with you I think um if it's going to if it's going to be reallocated to anything it ought to be

infrastructure because that's you know that that that's what we need to be investing in as as far as open space goes um I think that one's a little different and this is just me because that that is those those those are properties potential opportunities citywide. Um and those those those sometimes are help us um navigate difficult situations. um you know especially you know for land use

issues where you've got contentious properties and maybe you know you've got an opportunity to like I'm I'm thinking the Jer Jericho Road Park um for example the um you know the SeaTac Park um and and I think I I think we we want to be able to have those opportunities um to to to preserve and create open space and and to to have those I mean just even environmental buffers um as we go about

redevelopment um and and I think the fund balances I mean property ain't getting any cheaper that's for sure. So I mean you could use that fund balance basically in two per you know two transactions and have it be have it be goblebbled up pretty quickly. So, um, but I do agree with the ARP that, um, some combination of a rate adjustment andor the how much gets rolled over into fund balance is probably appropriate.

Barbara, did you have a comment for Josh?

Yes. Well, for that as well, but I I would say that we have ad citizen advisory committees for each of these topics. We have an open space citizens advisory committee. We've got an a advisory committee and so forth. For a time there, we were not buying open space and we had a lot of push back from the public because the properties that come to the open space for purchase are generally promoted by a neighborhood

that's very much concerned that one of their prime most uh loved parcels is going to be developed. And so the demand was from the public that we came back to the open space program. So each of these things has a history and I think it's important that we know that background and we ask these advisory committees for their advice before we go too far because we might be stumbling into

something. But I think it's only been very recently that we reinstated funds for the open space because of the demand from the public. So we really need to get this information straight before we go too far. Okay, Patrick had something.

So, Mr. Mayor, members of council, um the the two things that you all asked us to consider or probably well was probably one thing as part of the focus action plan that you all adopted was to tease out and propose to you all a funding scenario to to fund the infrastructure and the cost related to sports tourism and um expansion of possibly Innovation Park and recogn reconciling that with municipal uses,

right? So, we're working on those studies to reconcile those three uses.

Sports tourism, expansion of um economic development, innovation park, and also for municipal uses. All of those things including sports tourism, including economic development, including municipal uses require buildout of infrastructure, right? And they all need roads and they all need different things like ball fields and other things like that.

We need a funding source for that, right? You know, so like if we're focused on doing taxpayer relief, right? You know, so if there's a proposed surplus, we know we're getting a surplus with the VRS and there's probably some um real estate coming in healthier than what was initially anticipated.

In order to do all those things, we have to possibly consider further redirection of healthy dedications and right sizing them. But what I'm hearing is council is not opposed to us looking at the dedications, right? We don't necessarily need council to solve it. We can always make a recommendation. If council doesn't like it, you can always tell us we were wrong and do something else. But

I'm hearing there's a appetite for us to consider looking at your dedications and bring back a proposal on how we can help to address your contemp contemporaneous priorities in the in the budget. We don't necessarily got to solve it, but we we we're getting a sense of what's your that there's a tolerance there to seeing something creative for consideration.

Okay. Uh let's go Jennifer Cash, Barbara, and Rosemary. Yeah, I think most of it has already been said. I think the my mind in listening to everyone the the rate adjustment. So, um particularly for the a reserve, you're like this uh Kevin, I'm taking a statistics course. So, continuous and discrete variables. And so, in my mind, like looking at something like this, there's discreet, there's a finite

number of parcels that can be purchased as part of this program. It's not going to be an ongoing thing. it's going to at some point we're do so to council member Cummings point that you know perhaps there was a lot that we were purchasing at first and then it's getting smaller and smaller and smaller as the the number of parcels decrease. So because there's a discreetness to that um I think that that's an

appropriate fund to look at thinking about it for the purposes that you've mentioned. So thank you KF. Yeah, just to circle back and and thank you everyone. Uh robust conversation. Um but sorry I have to switch back to the cigarette text. Um sorry, sorry. Um only because I I I do have to prov safe safe place. Um the only reason I say this is because it's a dedication that um when you think about cigarettes,

it's affects all parts of Virginia Beach. Um, I just don't see where Centerville is. Um, so I can tell Centerville, hey, listen, because of the cigarette tax um the dedication, we uh can do um road infrastructure using that money or we could help fund.

I I'm just Okay.

So, sir, like I was going to give you that exact example. Okay.

Right.

probably a Centerville Road project, right?

So 21 cents goes to economic development. What goes on? 16% goes to 5 cents goes to tip.

54 cents goes to the general government operations of which the city pays debt service. So inside the treasurer's coffers, right, inside the bank of Virginia Beach, we get $600 million a year. Some of that $600 million a year is coming from the cigarette tax and that's covering the general operations of government and probably some of those pennies associated with the cigarette tax is going into pay for debt service

for things like the Centerville Road project and things like that. So it's inside the big giant sauce that is how the council funds the local government.

So, it's not just going to the EDIP program to give incentives for businesses to expand or locate to Virginia Beach, and it's not just going to the TIP to pay for projects at the oceanfront. It's going into how we buy fire trucks, how we pay for road projects, how we fix potholes, but it's not tied to one specific program within the city. It's funding the entire city operations overall,

including probably even sending some over to schools as well.

And Patrick, is Centerville 2 still on quue?

Mary, you don't have any easy questions.

Yeah, we got rid of Centerville 3 because I'm pretty certain Centerville 2 is in Q. Katie, you got anything you want to say about that?

I think um they're doing land acquisition now, but yeah, it's it's Centerville 2 is an operation.

Okay.

Yeah, it's funded.

Thank you. Thank you. I can see the wealth being spread out.

Okay, Barbara and then Rosemary, I am very very much concerned about this focused action plan.

Uh I think maybe different people had different ideas about what that was. I thought it was just the plan for things that we were going to consider. I didn't think that just because something was mentioned in that it meant we were approving it. And so I think we need to kind of back up and just see what has been approved and what is being talked about. I had no idea that there was already a consultant

hired to redefine the ITA.

I know we had talked about whether there needed to be some adjustment to it, but talking about something doesn't mean that we are approving it. I think if you're approving something like that, it takes an actual vote of the city council. And some of these things are moving forward that I'm not so sure six members of council would have voted for or certainly the public has not had input. And that's

been something I've been saying. And unfortunately, some of these things, too many of these things come to us in close session, which means that we really can't talk about these things to the public. But one of the things and I think that the legality is that I can if I object to something in the closed session I have to object publicly and I have been objecting to the fact that things are done without public

participation and the public doesn't know a lot of what is happening and I think we have not brought the public in on these plans at the beginning. we wait until the very end and say, "Oh, well, we've got to have a public hearing and there's got to be a vote." But if the plan and the decisions have already been made, the public's really not having input. If we're going to do a plan, the public

needs to be a part of it from the beginning. And we're not doing that. And I really think we need to re-examine some of the stuff that's moving forward because when I look at the comprehensive plan that's before us and some of the things that it says in there, for example, expansion of Innovation Park. I don't think the city council has voted to say we want to expand Innovation Park. It's been talked about, but I

don't think the city council has made that decision that we want to expand innovation park as described to take 700 acres of agricultural land and become an in industrial park. That's not something that I think we have talked about or should be pursued until it's been talked about and clarified with an actual vote of city council. Um, I I've got a lot of concerns about the direction we're moving in.

Hey, wait a minute. Patrick, can you respond to that?

M, I just want to clarify. The council has not voted to support any budget proposals. You have just asked us to bring forward something for consideration. And the council has not voted to amend the ITA plan. You've just asked us to start the process to amend the plan and bring something forward for the council's consideration.

Okay. Rosemary.

Um I I kind of want to go back to Sandbridge again and and I agree with Barbara. um the SSD and the sand tax and all of that was one of and it happened right before I got on council and it was really really a brilliant thing to do and it was not just the sand but it also provided water and sewer down there and it's been such a huge success besides

we're not having the houses fall into the ocean like the Outer Banks but they it's you know you can survive or you can thrive and flourish and it has thrived and it's flourished and that's why it's done so well and that's why we've been able to bring the the uh search charge way way down because there's been so much money that's been able to go into that and I I do remember there's quite a

few years that we took some of that money because of it's it's like the tiff in the town center that it needed to benefit the rest of the city and so I know quite a few years we gave schools a portion of that money. So I I think there is a way to look at it to see how it can be done and and it was the right thing to bring

it down because it's it's as you can see it's a healthy balance and and you really have to applaud Sandbridge because they they paid for it themselves. I mean by the success that it's created but also because we were there to to help put it in place. So anyway, I I just think it was a really great thing.

Okay, Josh.

Thank you, Mayor. Um, you know, I I just um I want to defend our focused action plan um because I mean that's that's our body of work these last three years. And um that's what we've been talking about at each and every one of our council retreats these last three years. Um and it was, you know, a lot of a lot of staff effort, a lot of um dialogue between us. Um obviously all of that is

available to the public and can be viewed online and and we've had midyear reports on um you know, the things we've hit and the things we've yet to do. Um, and and I really like that document and I like the the work that that kind of has come out of that because I mean I think we should all be proud of the work over the last 3 years. Um, and I do remember

on the wall behind us, um, where we all, it wasn't dot gate, but it was maybe one or two before where we all went up there and, you know, put dots next to the, you know, should we, should we explore these things? should we, you know, dedicate time and effort to to help, you know, to help us make a better and more informed decision as to both the sports and the um economic development opportunities

that that might exist down there. Um and and we and I clearly remember that we all agreed that or at least most of the dots agreed that that we should you know that we should go ahead and evaluate the the question so that we can make those informed decisions and there's been no decisions made yet um other than to just evaluate it so that we could communicate it to people.

Okay. Anybody else at this point? All right. you know, let's go ahead and include this part uh you know, and I think it was a healthy discussion and you know, but once again, it's deliberation, but yeah, but let me just say, you know, in politics, we get blamed for not acting quick enough and then acting too quick and what's going on. And if you have an action plan, the idea is plan. And you know, once again,

I I think that we all had a consensus about getting a world uh class track and getting some action sport. You know, the ideal is getting it going versus talking about it. And if we have a funding source that is quasi related, uh you know, whether it be agricultural reserve or open space, uh that's money well spent, especially if there's money technically in the bank. And the idea

once again finding this funding sources.

Uh but you know, you know, but once again I think uh you know the council may think now is the time to act not talk and you know we got and demonstrate to the public that we're acting in their behalf. Okay. Michael.

Thank you mayor. I want to say a word about action sports because um I consider myself to be I think one of the most vocal champions for action in particip participatory sports on council. Um and and I certainly support um expansion of action sports opportunities both for um Virginia Beach residents and also as a uh tourism amenity and attraction uh that would benefit everyone in our in our community

all year long. Um BMX has been a great example of that. the every time I we're in the convention center now just across the street is the center that every time I drive by is just you know bustling with activity uh from people from all over the country. It's pretty pretty exciting and I think there are so many opportunities um before us including in uh potentially in the ITA. Um maybe I've missed

something. Uh but what I what I haven't heard though is um um a really careful examination of um what the impact of for example a cross country track would be or um whether it should be BMX, whether it should be motor I mean skateboarding.

Um, and I've heard a lot of discussion about an NCAA cross country track and that sounds like it could be great and I know uh there's been assertions that high schools and maybe universities would benefit from that and probably so um but we're talking about I mean I don't know sounds like we're making a decision on that front too um which which we were just criticized for moving too fast in other areas so without

public engagement or full understanding.

So, I just want to make sure that we're not, you know, building consensus around something that we don't fully understand yet. And I think we need to fully understand what the impacts would be and what and what the best investment. After all, these are not our resources. They belong to the public and we all know that. Um, and the public should um expect to benefit from from that. So

whether it's a a track or whether it's BMX or whether it's skateboarding, there's a lot of uh activity in skateboarding across skateboarding is unbelievable and we yet we never talk about that. Um I was on an action sports panel where we talked about BMX skateboarding and surfing and um and what opportunities exist both for the tourism applications but also for um locals who who enjoy those sports and that's part

of our culture. Um, I think we need more analysis there. I'm not trying to suggest we slow anything down, but I see a train leaving the station awfully quickly here. And I just think we need to make sure we understand what's the impact of all that as well as any other applications for it.

Michael, Michael, I agree with you 100% before I get to Patrick. All we're doing is telling Patrick, go ahead and pursue that. All we're looking for is the first step right now. Patrick and then Stacy.

Mr. M first, mayor. how that person coming to um all due respect we number of years ago the council had a vict study and vict study came back with several proposals about what how we should proceed and what uh public interest was and and some some of the uh suggestions that they made uh or the very things we're talking about and I I think as a council uh again being the new guy on the

Sometimes we do these studies, we put them on a shelf and we move on. The Victus study was a pretty in-depth study, came back with some very specific recommendations and um some of these some of the things they did there's just no downside to it.

There it's um so I think we have done a study. I think we do have the land and we're finding an ability and we're not making final decisions but at least we should start moving forward to see what's possible and uh we have there there is interest from local universities to get involved with the C crossc country course our own school system needs a cross country course I think that we found through the sports

center that if we build something and we do it right we can attract sports sports tourism year round. That place is packed with people from around the country and things like um you know a cross country course which is in keeping with this idea of the uh bringing sports tourism to Virginia Beach is something that we should pursue and another study is just going to delay it and and this time next

year we'll be sitting here hopefully not with a new council but it's possible we're having a new council that's going to want some new information and um you Uh there's an old saying uh paralysis by analysis and I think we have enough information to know that the public wants it. There's a need for it and we have the space and the ability to do it and we're not making final decisions.

But let's let's take this let's take a step forward.

Patrick, let's Barbara real quick and then you and then let's bring this to a close.

I could not agree with Stacy more. It's time to move forward. It was at the retreat two years ago that I asked for the plan to completely implement the ITA and I asked that it be presented by October 1st of that year which was 24 and we got it and we have that and we've been carrying it around for two years to make the sports tourism go forward. And you're right, it's not just for the

tourists, it's for our kids and our families. It checks all the boxes. So, we've been sitting around with this plan for two years. Let's make it happen. I could not agree with Stacy more. I mean, we we know these things are needed.

Okay. Yeah. Let me do it, Michael, and then uh you can wrap things up, Patrick.

Thank you. Um well, one thing I know about studies is that they quickly become outdated. Um so, what may have been applicable two years ago, market conditions could have changed. I don't know. Um I'm not trying to paralyze by analysis, but I do want to make sure that um and you you say the public wants it. I know some members of the public want it. You know what they also want? They want to they want more

skate parks. They want more skate opportunities. We've got a whole BMX community that consistently asks for the opportunity to um to ride BMX and there's lots of BMX riders across the city and we've had some difficulty in that area with land.

Um I think we need to just be very thoughtful and very strategic and make sure we um we're making a decision. you know, there's it's publicly owned property and there public resources being invested and and I just want to make sure that uh we're making the the best and most impactful decision for the community. It's not to say I don't like running or cross country or open space

or see the benefits, but you know, we're being asked to accelerate in one area and slow down in another area. It's very confusing to me as a council member and I think it's confusing to the public, too.

It can you make it quick and we got to get going.

Great quick comment. Great conver conversation and discussion. Just want to clarify. I think the studies that we're talking about really is the capability of the land to be engineered for roads infrastructure and not the Victus study. Thank you uh Stacy for bringing that up because that's proved positive right there that the that we do need and want uh sports tourism here in the city. I think the study really is

the capability of and the cost of installing roads and infrastructure and implementing the plan. Mr. Manager, Mr. Merit, that's um that's what the council approved, right? They approved for us to start the process of amending the ITA for consideration and also to do ROI analysis on sports tourism, economic development as well as like like infrastructure feasibility. And just want to clarify um I didn't get

direction from council on what elements to put in there at this time. What my understanding of it was was that we would work to come up with funding scenario for council to consider as part of the proposed budget. And then after we bring back the completed work on how to possibly amend a plan for consideration and a feasibility studies and an ROI analysis, council would then give us direction to proceed or not to

proceed and then what to proceed with.

Okay, we're right in the middle of the in the beginning once how about once we get the budget process and get a better handle on it and then get more input about the comprehensiveness that Michael was talking about a few other things but but you know once again why don't we just all agree to give this a high priority you know coming out of budget cycle how's that sound okay all right moving on

and I'm just going to say to wrap up the dedications part of it I think what the manager said earlier is what staff heard But I'll just repeat it to make sure everyone's on the same page that the staff will review the dedications with large fund balances and come back with a proposal to council as part of the budget process of how they might um make adjustments to some of those fund

balances. keeping in mind uh needing to preserve the purpose uh and intent of the original uh program. So that's it's not a final decision, but it's staff will come back with that to you.

Okay.

Okay.

Hey, that was good talk, folks.

Good. So, we're going to shift like we're totally not talking about budget now. We're um talking about Do you want a break?

Yeah. Can we take take a short break?

All right. A 10-minute break.

10-minute break.

H

Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat.

Hey.

Hey.

Um, so we're just going to spend a short amount of time on this, but just talking about the different roles of council members on a governing body. All of the roles are important. All of the roles are useful at different times, but we just want you to think a little bit as a group what your preference is for different roles and how that helps you work together to lead the city of

Virginia Beach. So, I'm going to share a little bit of information from ICMA, the International City County Managers Association, and a couple of professors and practitioners about how they describe the different roles of the governing body. I'm then going to ask you all to do a quick little selfassessment. What you naturally prefer in terms of your role and then what you think the council

should um prioritize in terms of the council as a body's role.

So there's six different roles of a governing body of council members.

There's a strategic vision big picture thinker. There's a trustee steward, a representative or constituent advocate, a community builder, bringing people together, decision maker, and oversight.

And as I said, all these roles have their place, and you're going to shift back and forth in these different roles at different times.

So, this first one is being a strategic uh vision or big picture thinker. uh you have a handout in front of you that summarizes some of this as well, but a strategic vision role is looking at what's important in the short and long term for the city of Virginia Beach. You focus on decisions that have significant impact. So the last day and a half, we've talked about a number of decisions

that can have significant impact on the city. You think beyond your present constraints. You're not just looking at what you can do today, but what you can do long term. Try to think creatively about how to things might be able to happen. You listen to your community and their wants and needs. You identify interconnections between different things you're working on as a city. Um,

and you lead new initiatives and ideas.

So, strategic vision, big thinker is one role you play as council members.

Another role is being a trustee or a steward. Um, and that's you're providing a responsibility to the community as a whole. You're looking at the their greater good and long-term implica implications of their dis of your decisions and playing a fiduciary role.

You might not always be listening to what the loudest voices are saying because some people will be saying, "Don't do this." But you're thinking bigger picture. You're um taking on the responsibility as if you're uh the city residents are the owners and you're their representative and doing what you think is best for them. It's not always what you hear, but it's what you know in

the long term is best. So maybe you know the example today of doing a um SSD for Sandbridge maybe at the time I wasn't here but maybe at the time people were like don't charge us extra tax but in in retrospect you're thinking bigger for them you know that they need it and so you're having that trustee role.

The next one is being a re representative or constituent advocate.

This is someone that's being responsive to the phone calls you're getting. My trash wasn't picked up on time. I don't know where my thing is in uh the planning process. Can you help me figure this out? Um you're connecting your your community with the local government and you're responsive to individual concerns.

And all of these roles are important.

You play them at different times.

The next one is being a community builder, bringing people together. Um, you are really trying to build community and it might be physically building community, building spaces where people can gather, come together. It might be convening meetings where people can come together. It's also bringing people together that have differing opinions and trying to find those common purposes

for the community. You focus more on conversations and relationships. You celebrate accomplishments. You participate in a lot of events. You're out there everywhere trying to help bring people together.

And then there's the role of the decision maker. your Tuesday nights, you know, when you're at um at up on the deis making those decisions, you are reading briefing materials, deciding, moving forward, you're participating in study sessions, you're listening to residents, you're bringing your expertise, you're voting, and then finally, the role of oversight is um doing things like conducting the

manager's uh evaluation looking at the audit, focusing on accountability of staff and um focusing on their role on your role overseeing what's happening. So these are six different roles. We use them all all the time. What I'd like you to do is do I'll come back to that. um the the little self assessment um and rank order which one you naturally gravitate to and prioritize them one through six. So the top half of

the page uh use the numbers one through six. One is the role you most gravitate toward and six is the one you least gravitate toward. You do all of the roles, but what one do you do most to least? And then the bottom half of the page is what you think the council should emphasize to be most effective.

Can be different than your own role or your own pri natural prioritization, but what do you think the council should be prioritizing and rank that one through six as well. And when you're done, we'll we'll collect them.

emphasis.

I can't remember.

I think that's the average of the personal scores.

That's like

Wait, is it 1 through six.

If you didn't follow the rules, that's going to mess me up.

Oh, all right.

Follow the rules.

Yes.

You're not You're refusing.

No, it wasn't cash. It was Josh.

Josh is boycotting.

You good?

He's still thinking.

All of them are appropriate. Nothing is no wrong answers.

There's more

Done. First

When your shoot came in, you I was done first. Everyone,

Sandler, etc.

Jennifer, we're going to give you combat pay.

Hazardous duty. Yeah.

Yeah, I gave a little money to the national politic.

Yeah, I've always like that's frightening.

Thank you.

All right, while they're tallying results, I'm going to just um say a couple words.

Another election So ICMA has used this with a number of different governing bodies uh since 2016 and when they did this report this was the typical results that they received from different bodies. So 30% said they leaned in most they were most natural representative constituent advocates.

15% said they leaned into decision makers. Um 21% strategic vision, 15% community builder, and 19% uh trustee steward as their most leaned into.

You'll notice there's six roles and there's only five. They said in all the time they've done this, no one ever said their top uh natural preference was oversight.

So that was I thought interesting.

And then there's in your materials a link to the article if you want to read more about it.

Um, as as we wait for the results, I wanted to just talk to you about the different roles and how what role you're playing can impact the budget since we're at the budget retreat. So, if you um are doing actually I'm going to do this one first. If you are thinking about decisionmaking, um you want to spend your time making decisions that are most impactful.

Uh and so when you think about how you could divide up the types of decisions you have, there's consequential decisions, there's inconsequential decisions, there's irreversible decisions, and there's reversible decisions.

If you're spending a lot of your time talking to your constituents, for example, um, and just helping connect them to a service, that's important, but it's reversible and inconsequential up here. If you're in your consequential and irreversible decisions, those are the ones where the city most needs your leadership and needs you to spend most time because those are the important consequential decisions that you can't

go back on. And if you're spending your time on a lot of the smaller decisions, then you're not spending enough time on those consequential, irreversible decisions that the community is looking for you to make decisions and move forward.

And so how that ties into budgets is someone said something similar yesterday. Like a decision not to make a decision is like a tax on a future generation. Your costs keep going up.

And so if you're delaying decisions, it's going to just be more costly for future uh future residents, future generations.

and not making decisions impacts staff time. It impacts resource availability.

The scopes and cost of projects need and community needs change over time. So, we're wanting to make a really pretty grade um here.

We're wanting to have you think about what your natural tendency is and what you think the council should be focusing on as you're making decisions and your p your your natural tendency might make it harder for you to shift into those consequential and irreversible decisions but as a body those are where you need your focus. So before we display the results, I'll pause like any reactions

to how you all are working together or spending your time and where you might want to spend more time.

Yeah, worth.

Thank you, mayor. This is a great discussion and an exercise I think for us. That being said, I have to just make a statement though because we are elected individually by districts. So our constituents are in our districts at the same time we swear an oath to represent the interest of the city of Virginia Beach. And so there is a is there a tug of war there or is there um some something imbalance there or or

wrong? I don't know. But I make decisions based on the best interest of the city. I just want to put that out there. And so there is because your question is you know do we pay attention to our constituents? And we do, but we have to pay all the of the citizens of Virginia Beach, in my opinion, are our constituents.

Yeah. And I I just want to emphasize all of the the different preferences are important and paying attention to your constituents is important. And so I'm not trying to say that's not of course not.

So I I just would say though we I heard it from all of us. We're you've you vacasillate in between all of them in the course of a of a day, right? And I would imagine we all use our legislative assistance to help us with that as well.

So you literally can be working in two of the same two areas at the same time almost. You know, for sure that they they help us a ton as far as moving things. It might be down at at the um literally constitu like you said potholes, lights are out, stuff like that. um that can be handled the same time we're at a council meeting, you know, so that both can be going on at

the same time. And I do agree though, I look at it, I've said many times, you know, um for me, uh it's the overall health and safety of our citizens and our tourists and then the overall health of the city and and then our constituents. And I think we're all able to keep those plates moving. I don't I don't think any of us would not agree to that. So looking forward to seeing where everybody's stickers are.

Yeah.

Oh, that's a diverse group.

We'll put up your averages so you can all see everybody. I'm just going to read across the top. Berluchcci puts B his natural tendency as representative.

Cummings and dyer natural tendency as decision maker. Henley and Hutchinson Hutcherson natural trustee steward Jackson Green community builder. Remick and Ross Hammond strategic vision Rouse community builder Schulman representative Wilson decision maker.

So, you've all got different preferences and everyone probably wanted to do like one council member and put them all as equal at the top. Um, but just just want to help give you a sense, huh?

No, go figure, Barbara.

Buy a lottery ticket today. I'm telling you.

Everyone else. Wait, who you're you're the same as Oh.

Oh, wow.

How was it you were able to copy?

Um, so when when you're looking at this, is there anything as a body that you might want to emphasize differently? Could I say I think this is great because it's a mix and it's a difference in style but a unity in purpose. uh you know because once again you know we really want to do well for everybody and there's a broad spectrum on how what's important and with 11 individuals you know being 11 individuals

but united in vision which I think we are I think the diversity that we see on the board is a great thing Josh and then Stacy yeah um just building off of what you just said mayor um I think the one missing element there um is is a team member, you know, um especially if you're talking about the whole body because I mean I I think each and every

one of us comes at this job with um good hearts and good intentions and um you know it's it it takes six votes to get anything done. It takes eight votes to pass a capital budget. And you know, we all I know we are all there for one another for things that make sense, that are good ideas that are that that may may be in somebody else's district, but um but are beneficial to to the city

as a whole. So, I think um being a good team member is is is a is an important trait.

Okay.

Stacy.

Oh, Stacy. Yeah.

Yeah. I I would say coming on uh when I first started thinking about uh running for council, my vision was uh the most important thing was to be a decision maker that there going to be many many things that are to come to council. We need to make decisions and one of the things I'm most pleased about is our ability to form consensus.

you know, even if we uh don't agree upon the way to solve a problem or the way to approach it, we typically come to some type of consensus that speaks for the whole. And I I'm really pleased with it and I think our mayor does an incredible job of of building consensus.

The thing that I um maybe the most surprising to me is when you're running and people say, "Oh, how are you going to like it when you're people call you about their trash not getting picked up with a pothole in the road?" And you kind of laugh that off thinking, you know, yeah, that can't be a major thing. It's a major thing.

It's every day. And I'm not complaining.

It's but it's it's a role that I minimized um coming into this, but it it now uh it it takes my whole day and I I'm not complaining. It's what I do. But people need to be aware that it is a full-time job every day of listening to people and their issues and they're vast majority of them are are very legitimate and they need uh they need your input and help. But, uh, it's

a lot. It's a lot more than anybody thinks it is.

So, yeah. And along that line, Stacy, uh, let me put it this way. You know, in politics these days, it's a contact blood sport everywhere.

But once again, I think we're kind of our own little oasis that, you know, we, you know, I think we should set a national standard on how people should get along. You know, we're from different parties, different ideologies, but we're focused on certain things. And you know, the thing is we also live in a theater of perceptions.

And uh let me give you, you know, an example of that. Uh we often in the time we'll get special interest groups come in and lobby for a vote and sometimes we may not subscribe to the vote. But the reality is we have to think about not who's in the gallery in front of us that night because there's a lot of other people that didn't have the opportunity to get to

come neither to speak pro or con but the fact is we got 460,000 constituents in there that we got to think about and I think pretty much for the most part you know that's where we all come from making the decisions every time we vote we're making somebody mad even on the simple stuff. But but once again, if we do the right thing, not the political thing, we'll always be on safe ground.

Yeah, Stacy. And then just to follow up on the strategic vision, you know, coming into this, I put a lot more, you know, I had a lot more faith that we'd be able to cast the vision for the city.

And being in the role, really come to realize that we're a very diverse city. We're a city that's divided on some issues, especially when it comes to growth. We have a part of our constituency that wants to see the city grow, that we need more housing, we need more things for people to do, we need more economic development, and if you're not growing, you're dying. We have a good part of the city that says,

I remember Virginia Beach, 1965, was a wonderful place. Why can't we go back there? So, it's difficult in our position to cast a vision um that's going to please everyone or even please the majority because there's so many different um things tugging at the city's resources. So casting a vision at this for this council for anyone on this council is tough because you're not going to find uh you're not going to

find uh a majority of people that agree upon which way the city should go and um that conflicts with each of our own values I'm sure many times but you know trying to cast a vision is rough.

Jennifer, thank you, mayor. And yeah, to your comments, it made me think about um I selected community building and in my mind that's one of I think our um the emphasis as the body is community building because we're representing so many different constituencies. So the the idea like when you campaign it's one thing, but then being in office is a different thing when you realize the

constraints of the office. So it's state code, it's local code, it's enterprise funds and dedications that you think, oh there's this money. Well, no, this money is already my policy has to do this and this and then oh land use and you want to just put stuff up but wait there's rules about what can go where. So there all of these constraints that you have to work with and then sometimes

competing interests, sometimes mutually beneficial interests and because we're all representing our districts but also to the mayor's point different ideas about what's important values. For me, I think what we aim to do uh is the community building piece, which is how do we make people either more generally happy or mad at us at like a balanced level because not everybody is getting

what they want, but we're trying to do what's best for the city. So, um it's sometimes taking boats where you're like, uh, you know, in a perfect world, I would have voted yes or no, but in the real world, I voted under the conditions that were given. So, um, I think part of that is, you know, when you're building, it's it's help it's explaining that to the public. It's bringing the public in

to understand these are the conditions and constraints. And so, as the best we could because I do believe we're a really well-run city. Um, which is also why I put oversight so low because the staff knows what they're doing. These directors know what they're doing. So, you know, M. Okay.

want welcome your comment and then I'm going to suggest we cut this conversation short because I know you have a bunch of governance things we need to talk about as well.

Final word.

Final word. I I ran so that um that when we have a disagreement, you can go into Food Lion and still say hi. And I felt like right I I I felt like I didn't want that to stop, right?

I wanted to keep the conversations going. So that's really community building is valuable to me. It is the most important thing for me to have a disagreement with someone, but when I see them at food line, we still say hi and we have normal conversations about uh school and events around town. That is paramount for me. And so I will continue to um um teach communication to encourage uh relationship building

because that's the for me the backbone of a strong economy.

Final word.

And you know just a synopsis that you know local government is the most intimate with the public of all the branch branches of government. That was a great exercise. Thank you.

Great. Thank you. So, I'll just, you know, we we as a council know that our priorities need to be kind of strategic vision, community builder, and trustee steward, but we also have these roles as representative, decision maker, and oversight. So, I just encourage you to keep keep the big picture, keep focusing on the big decisions and the big strategy and community as you continue to move forward.

Good stuff. That was good. All right, we're going to do an abrupt shift to talk about governance. Um, you all had suggested ahead of time a number of different topics that you might want to cover related to governance.

And we are here to help you decide which ones you want to talk about and how much. I know there's a few that um are timely because of election issues. So, we'll start with a could be a discussion about election signs uh particularly at voting places, city resources um within 90 days of elections. So, there's been questions about whether or not or how much or precisely how you can

use city resources. Anyone can use city resources um at like public meetings, you know, forums within 90 days of election days.

There's been questions about staffing town halls and um whether there should be some limits on how many town halls per member can be staffed in a given period.

Um, honorary street and facility naming has come up as a topic and uh board appointments to different uh boards and whether or not you should look at having district representation and all boards.

And then to to that we've talked about before uh adding items to the agenda and the timing of closed sessions and and informal sessions to see if you can better uh not feel so rushed and pressured on some of those days when you have so many meetings. Um so these are the topics that we heard that you all might want to talk talk about.

I'm going to suggest I know that we need to talk about the election signs and the city um city resources within 90 days of elections. I'm going to suggest we start there. I think there's some material in your binders about your current policy.

I don't know if you want to open.

So, Mr. Mayor, members of council in particular with election signs, um staff gave city council a a briefing and then following that briefing, council gave us a general idea of where you think you may want to land that you wanted to discuss today. And I think what council said they wanted to land was to possibly consider allowing election signs in our new voter registar building and in our

satellite locations on the day of election. and um council access to send a draft um resolution of what that could look like and the attorney's office drafted that and we provided that to you all and it's inside your packet. So, I think you all wanted to kind of have a conversation today to to let us know where you all are on this and generally I think you all were possibly thinking

but haven't decided yet cuz you wanted to think about it some more is um election signs only on election day at the satellite locations controlled by the city and um our main voter registar building which will be moving to close to Mount Trashmore.

Okay. Rosemary and Worth. So um we had a really robust discussion about this and I it's in in my memory and correct me if I'm wrong I I think we landed that no signs at the registars's office or the satellite offices in the 45day period leading up to election day because it was creating so many problems. You know people were posturing and fighting and and it was putting a big strain on staff members as well.

they would be tried to put them in the middle and uh but we wanted to do the day of voting at all the precincts that would allow them. If there was a you know private one that would not allow them, so be it. That's their private property. But all the ones that would be allowed would be like at 6:00 the night before until the polls close the next day. That's and we we thought that would help

take away some of the angst it's been uh experiencing in the past. That's that's what I remember.

Okay. Worth.

Thanks, Mayor. And you just clarified my question. Uh could you put it out there on you know, you define election day and uh early voting. So, I'm in agreement with that. I think any I think we did land on that.

Okay, Jennifer. Yeah, I think we landed on that because it was an all or nothing issue. So the city or well one of the city attorneys said um uh it would be difficult to say well what kinds of signs and how many per candidate and that was to um anyway legally it's easier to do zero than it is to do some.

Okay. Hutch and then Stacy.

So where do I'm sorry I just don't remember. Where do schools fall in this?

Are they part of the city property? You know what I mean? Are they Are they under this rule? Somebody, Mr. Mayor, um Monica or Dana?

Okay, Dana. All right, Dana, can you pass on the ball?

Did the schools control their properties?

Are we working with them to follow along with the same procedures though?

I'll take it.

I can speak to the schools. Obviously, it'll be a schoolboard decision similar like how it's a city council decision, you know. So, um, but I I could speak to them as well to get a sense of where they would want to possibly be if the council went in a different direction.

Okay, Stacy.

Hey. Um th obviously this comes up because this is a has been a contentious issue and wherever we land again I'm going to just reinforce unless we have equitable enforcement with consequences then this is an exercise exercise of futility. We need to make sure that we have the resources to enforce whatever we decide to do.

Okay, Mr. Mayor, just just to clarify, if council lands in this particular spot where they say city property can only be used for the posting of signs, political signs the day of the voting day, the actual voting day of election. We would have resources take care of that because that's a pretty easy standard to manage, right?

Basically, if there is a political sign outside of the day of vote, the actual election day 6 p.m.

Yeah. 6. Yeah. Yeah. Basically, whatever this the center they adopt. Yeah. We'll be able to remove the sign accordingly based on whatever policies you adopt.

Okay. Ke and it's a lot different than trying to lies who's doing the current process now where it's a lot of ambiguity or a lot of um room for creativity. folks can expand different policies. Yeah.

So, I'm I'm comfortable with that as long as we educate the public. I'm not comfortable with um penalizing them without education. And I'm not saying we're trying to penalize them. I think we need to do this. But again, I I'm a part of the working class, so most of them don't even see the new ordinance. And um so education is important to me. We we've got to do a

and I don't want it to be the taxpayers that pay for it. I don't know what I'm saying here, but I'm what I'm trying to say is um education has to be important.

Um before we we we enforce I mean education has to be important.

Okay, Stacy.

For the for this election cycle, we're going to have 12 people running. So and then school board will have another 12.

So all we educate the campaigns and the campaign should be responsible for getting the word out to the people who were doing you know putting the signs out. I don't know that we need to have a whole community effort educating everyone in the city about where signs can be placed. Just educate the campaigns and make it their responsibility.

Okay Patrick Mr. Mayor, as council, when we presented to council, we also provided council a couple of um ideas that we could do to enhance our engagement and education of the campaigns working with the voter registar inclined in line with what u Mr. Cummings mentioned. Monica Kroski gave that presentation. Is okay for her to give council a quick um synopsis of what we ideated?

Is that okay? Go ahead.

Okay, Monica.

Thank you, Mr. Manager. uh mayor, vice mayor, members of council. What we saw some of our peers, they actually once you meet the requirements to be on the ballot, they give you a packet that explains all of the rules.

Okay. Sorry, in my mind I'm loud. Um once you meet meet the requirements to get on the ballot, um you you get a packet. Um some come from the voter registar, some come from the city manager. we can work out the particulars that have all of the rules and they actually sign to acknowledge that they've been given the rules. Um, and it's not unlike what we do now. We work with the campaign

managers primarily through Christine the voter registar, but this just formalizes it. Um, a lot of them have really nice sites. Uh, OPA has been working with comms and voter registar to get a nice easy to read site that has the ordinances, the administrative directives all in one spot. Um, Newport News has a really nice one-pager with a QR code that takes folks in the campaigns to just one simple site. So,

these are the types of things we've been working on in the background. Anyways, um, but we will definitely move forward if you all move um in this this area.

Uh, something else we'll have to do is identify for the new building where we want the signage. Um, we have quite a bit of land. We're actually going to be sending around an opportunity for you all to tour the new building because we realize you haven't seen the new impressive building that you all um purchased so that our elections can run smoother. Um so we'll work with the voter registar. We'll probably get a

cross representative group together to decide where do we want um the signs because we have neighbors. We're no longer on a government complex. Uh we have neighbors who are not government entities. Um, but yes, to the manager's point, we can get a packet together and campaigns would sign, the candidate would sign acknowledging that they've received uh the rules.

Rosemary, and I would also think like for example, at all the polling places where they say you can't be 40 feet, you have to be 40t away from the door that you know at our satellites and at the registars, we can have sign. It says no political signs allowed.

that could be posted easily.

Trouble is getting people to comply with all these. Yeah. Work.

Thank you. Uh I just want to ask a question. Does this apply to signs along street publicly owned roadways and streets or is that a different topic?

That's a different topic. But if we want to we can refresh council on the rules on those again, but that's a different topic. You want to Jennifer?

Mr. Mayor, do you want us to talk about that again or no?

Uh, do we need to talk?

We can do that another time.

All right, perfect.

Yeah, Jennifer.

And um, did we determine the size of the signs? So, I know we talked about yard signs. We talked about 4x4s. And so, whenever signs are permitted, did we decide we're going to restrict them to a certain size or the drive that was circulated has a limitation of 4x4, but the city council could choose a different limit as long as it's uniform.

And I would just say for that, sorry, mayor, we had that meeting where we had representatives from campaigns. Um, 4x4 seemed to be popular among the group.

They said they cost less. Um it puts all of the campaigns at a even playing field because we'll get the word out. So 4x4 seemed to be um the desirable size among the campaign folks.

Okay. Okay. Josh, have we talked about limiting the number of signs at a precinct per any one candidate?

Mayor Dana will comment. We we had discussed this and the the issue you have when you limit the signs by candidate or by issue is you need to reference the content of the sign to know whether it's within the restriction or without the restriction. And we think that puts you in um perilous place with regard to the current case law. That basically says any contentbased distinction is going to be subject to

strict scrutiny.

Okay.

So, so that's definitely tenative also.

No problem.

Okay.

So, it sounds like the next step is to bring the ordinance forward to council at a meeting for a vote.

Yeah, let's go ahead and do that.

If I may, one question. We um in the draft that was circulated, there was not the 6 p.m. the day before election day for the uh voter registars's office. Um the election day activities at her office is generally people returning absentee ballots, not people that are using it as a regular polling location.

So I don't know if you guys want to just take the voter registars's office completely offline because the election day stuff is so limited at that location.

Okay.

So is that you need you need direct you need guidance on that?

So the guidance is do we pursue it as written or do you want to open up the voter registars's office um 6 p.m. the day before?

Are they an actually polling place?

They're technically a polling location.

However, they serve as the central absentee precinct on the day of election. So you have people that will return their absentee ballots and that's where you have the central gathering of the absentee ballots. But it doesn't function in the same way as a normal polling location where people come and go from 6:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m.

Okay. Rosemary.

I don't think it should be included like a regular polling place because one is they've already probably written out their ballot. They're just bringing it in. But also where it's located I think it's like a condo association or HOA where like you said we've got neighbors and they've got rules too and that might make things a little bit more complicated. So I just think we leave the registars's office totally out.

Okay. So we'll we will proceed as drafted with the addition of uh the manager's request to reach out to schools to seek some sort of uniformity between particip the the way that the two treat their property.

Okay.

All right.

All right. Mo moving on.

I'm going to move you to city resources within 90 days of election.

And Mr. Mayor, members of council, this one um was communicated to me by several members of council that was considering the concept of par across the board for all elections in Virginia Beach, not just city council elections. I think if council recalls, there is a policy now in place that says um 90 days prior to an election, if a city council member is up for election, the city council member

cannot use city staff or city resources for any forums, events, or town halls.

um several members of council asked about to have a conversation amongst the body about extending parody for house of um delegate seats for the general assembly and also state senate seats and also for federal government seats. So basically any or constitutional officers. So basically any election within within Virginia Beach, not just city council election but all elections to have a 90-day blackout period of use

of city staff and resources.

Okay. Jennifer. So I support that primarily as a mechanism to protect staff and to not wait into all the politics of things that can when you're running for office and what if I don't have connection to city staff and I you know so I support this as a blanket policy primarily to uh protect city resources and for the purposes of elections making it so all candidates just have that they're running their

races outside of um city support or resources.

Rosemary and it sounds good. I guess my question is does that mean let's say there's a candidate running for the House of Delegates and they've got some questions about city policies. Does that mean they can't call a the city and ask them their questions? Is is it that finite or is it just more using our facilities and staff for doing meetings?

Vice Mayor, I think it's the I think it's the last part of what you said.

It's not um obviously delegates or even candidates can call us and ask us questions about like city information and things like that and we'll give them information but it's I think it's using city staff time like for example if they wanted to have like a a forum at the central library and they're up for election and it's 80 days from the election. They wouldn't be allowed if council adopted this policy to use city

staff or resources for that. But they could possibly still rent the central library as any public official can or any citizen can as long as they go through the regular process with central libraries. But they couldn't use staff for developing materials or coming to the forum to add, you know, to talk about different policies or different priorities of the city, but we could communicate to them about information

that they requested. Similarly, I I agree with Jennifer. I think it's I think it's fairly especially if it's good for us, it should be good for them.

Hey Josh, I'm wondering if it might be wise to carve out an exception for emergencies.

So for um I don't know if there's a natural disaster and city staff needs to be brought together.

Well, you know, but once again, you got a lot of people not running. That would be a city function, not a individual function, I think. Okay, Patrick, M. You're right. Cuz I I I do recall there was one No, that wasn't actually during election, but I do recall like if there is a like for example, god forbid, like another tornado or some kind of significant hurricane, that would be a

city function where all council members and if an candidate wanted to come and be in the audience, but we would invite council members, even if they were up for election, to come and talk to the public about resources and our action plan, especially if it's the district representative and even if they're up for election, That's a city related um need. Yeah.

Yep. It's safe. So, uh we I think we need to clarify. Are we talking about 90 days from the election date or 90 days from early voting?

I think the current policy the council has is 90 days from the election date.

So, it'll be 90 days from first Tuesday of November.

Good.

Okay. Amelia.

Yeah. Sorry, I've been putting this on, but I see hands. So, that goes before but um I'm in agreement with um Councilwoman Rouse and uh Councilwoman uh vice mayor about those conflicts because that can happen and especially where you mentioned the 90 days as well instead of you being represented you have a staff come in that's not you saying the policies thank you okay do we have a action here.

Okay.

All right. So, you'll bring policy for their adoption.

Yeah. We'll work with the city attorney's office to amend the current policy to allow for the ex for a similar requirement for all non-ouncil member elections.

All righty.

All right. Um I have a question about that.

What does that say? Uh responses to emergencies are a city function.

Yeah. I I think I need more clarity about that because I I think one of the reasons this is being discussed was because of a forum where city staff was requested to respond to um a flooding crisis that occurred in the district that I serve and there's an expectation.

So I'm would that have been an emergency?

not a city not a citywide emergency but to Mr. um Beluche's point that was a noraster that led to significant flooding in district three so and and I want to speak to that without without you know making this conversation about that particular meeting there is was an expectation from many people in the community to understand what was happening and I needed need to make sure that they

got accurate information and the most current and up-to-date information.

And so I'm just unclear about, you know, what is what constitutes an emergency because it would have been incomplete and it would have been um to have a conversation that I was participating in as their elected representative without that technical expertise that was brought to the table as part of that conversation.

And I'm not trying to get into the details of that, but I need to understand what is an emergency as part of that conversation because in my, you know, I serve a district that is disproportionately impacted by at times crisis flooding scenarios and that could happen at any time in the calendar. and I want to make sure on their behalf that we preserve the opportunity to get um the most comprehensive information to

them as possible when um they need it.

Okay.

And that's a fair request. I mean, I just don't know what emer what constitutes as what we're calling an emergency. And and that was a it wasn't it wasn't uh strategically planned that way. It just so happened that this scenario rolled out and and I know as the person who took the calls and got the emails how serious that was as you as well as you do, Mr. Dehaney, how

serious that was to the people who live in those neighborhoods and how necessary it was for them to get that information. you know, Michael, you know, I think we can almost guarantee, you know, that was a storm event and everything and, you know, with total city response and other areas of effect, I think you're you you'll be on very safe ground. But Stacy, I I think a very

easy thing to do is just make it at the mayor's discretion. If the mayor feels the need for a community event in the event of an emergency that let the mayor make that decision so that there's no it would be on the mayor.

It would be on the mayor.

Yeah. That what do people think about that?

Yeah.

Mr. Mayor, I also think a lot of this is because how we deal with other elected officials. Mr.

Beluchcci, to your point, like if the council amends it to do what Mr.

coming suggests that probably is just a conversation for a council member to have a town hall, but I think I don't necessarily know if council would want us to do it with delegate members or or um f or for our federal congress people and stuff like that. So, it sounds like you're asking for an amendment for emergency situations for council members to get a pass out of the 90 days thing

if like a noraster or something like that. So that I think that's a qualifi some kind of caveat for city council because you all will be directly responsible to your representatives if say we have a noraster or some kind of tornado in a district while a council member or even a mayor is up for election and they want to be able to talk to constituents. I think that's a good carve out for the city council but

not necessarily the delegate members. I think the other thing too, I think Michael brings a valid point, but the other thing is this is not a quote any kind of rally or vote getting, you know, type situation. This is a performance of duty.

Yep. Okay. We can I think I could work with the city attorney's office to give you a a carve out and get that to you all for feedback and then if you all are okay with that, we'll bring that forward. But Stacy, do you have anything else?

Okay.

But I think I got a director.

Yep.

All right. Staffing town halls. So the issue came up of um how much staff time should be dedicated to supporting town halls.

So M Oh, okay.

Yep. So Mr. Mayor, members of council, this came to me from a couple members of council and the question was how do we handle a situation when one or two council members want to have multiple town halls in a given month?

understanding that if we get in a situation where 11 of you all want to have say two town halls in a month that that's 22 meetings and there's 31 days in the month you know is that an efficient use of resources some council members want to talk about possibly creating a limit one idea that was thrown out there was one town hall to be staffed per month by um staff but the

floor is yours after I gave you that information from what I heard Michael well I didn't add I this wasn't on my list of things to talk about in the governance but I do think it's an important but I wanted to talk about something else I think once a month is totally fair totally fair um my question and I think to some degree concern is that I think that there is a lack of

transparency around what resources are available to support staffing the town halls and I am not sure their equity I'm not sure that we all receive the same resources that other members of council receive.

And I have some concerns about that. I think there's inequitable distribution of staff time related to the town halls, not just with the frequency, but with the preparation, with the execution, with the event logistics side of it. Um, I think communications does a great job.

I have a formula. So, I I my comments are not directed there. Um, some people appear to have individuals assigned to them that consistently do that and others don't. I know I don't.

Um, and I would like to see uh it explain more clearly what resources are available and asurances that they're equitably distributed among the 11 members of council.

And Mr. Mayor, to address that comment, if that's the case, it's going to stop right now, right? cuz I mean as we always strive for what we do for one we got to do for all of you all right so if there's anything going on in the background I'll look into it and rest assured we'll follow the processes that we communicate that's qualified in the city council policy of the standard that

we provide for council as it relates to your forum and town halls. So I'll put that on myself to talk to staff and if something like that is going on I will root it out and it'll stop immediately.

Hey Hutch.

So, I just want to help help I need some clarification. So, my personal opinion is that if y'all are having to be on the hook for one of one a month from all 11 of us.

I think it's that's absurd.

I mean, sorry.

I But I don't think I don't think that's far far No, I know. What I'm saying though is like if we want to have a town hall, I have town halls with no city support a lot cuz I'm comfortable that way. I like it that way. I don't want to burden you.

I can handle it.

But is as I understand if we need it, I'm not saying no, but like once a quarter being supported is way more appropriate in my mind for city staff.

That's still a boatload. I'm not that good with the math, but it's a lot. Um, so to say that y'all are on the hook once a month, no, I I don't I don't think that's proper.

You know, back in the day, um, you know, when I was a district guy, when I had a town hall meeting, I would be asked what did I what do I want to focus on? And like for instance, uh, you know, we had one just on the intersection, uh, Kentville and Indian River, which is what a very controversial uh, you know, topic. Um now the other thing is you know what about the possibilities of you

know two people doing a joint town hall in adjacent uh districts you know to kind of help out as a possibility.

Yeah, I I think you know but Michael you had some with with some other state delegates and everything and the thing is if you you know like u you know for instance uh district 1 and district 7 are significantly overlapped in a lot of ways would it and as a matter of fact uh Lord Dunore is in both districts you know that type of thing.

Yeah.

Oh yeah. Let's go Amelia and then Josh.

Yes, the two of our uh districts are right and we sometimes do things together, but I think the problem is that we've had maybe one or two doing so many uh so what you're saying once a month, some may do even more than once a month and that is a heavy burden on our staff because a lot of the times it's after five.

So you've got to look at even for the staff for example if you mainly want to do infrastructure or you you mainly want to do you know storm water then that's too separate but if you're calling three or four people almost monthly and so forth and they feel that obligation to be at yours and the next week be over here. So, we need to establish something just like you're saying so that we do not overburden our

staff. Thank you, Josh. And then, Jen, um I I I agree with Council Member Hutch. I think quarterly makes a lot more sense to have staff support. um that that obviously doesn't preclude any one of us from holding community meetings on a monthly basis. But um but if we're going to if we're going to ask staff to stay and you're absolutely right, not just after 5, but a lot of

these start at what 6:00 6:30 and they go until 8:30 and you know that people everybody's been working a full day already. And so I I like the idea of quarterly if there's going to be support.

Okay Jennifer.

Yeah, that was going to be my question is what kind of direction are you looking for because and I think quarterly is fine again specifically for staff support. So, I know a number of us just meet anyway uh in our own capacities, but um it's not only the after hours, but it's the prep time. So it's the district level, you know, you're assigned your job, your nineto-ive job staff, and then somewhere

in between that taking breaks to get, you know, all these different granular info, which is helpful, but for the purpose of this organization functioning, um, we aren't here to be a strain. So I am fine with quarterly, um, or whatever the number, but I think we need to put some kind of number on it for clarity so that you all know how to go from there. Quarterly fine.

Mr. Mayor, Mr. Mayor, I think we can we can get to a place for quarterly for staff resources and still keep if you want to do one monthly, we still can give you the marketing and the outreach to um people in your district or your circle, we can still do that. But for the staff, we can get to quarterly. Now, I think we should also carve out a caveat to Mr.

Belaluchcci's point. Like say a council member say if you do quarterly it's four and a council member exceeded that or you exceeded one for the quarter and then you end up with a noraster or an emergency it's still another conversation to for staff to we can still do that by just letting council know hey you know we're going to do this and it'll be no issue. I don't think

anybody have an issue with that. So I do think we can get there and then carve out an appropriate exception that the let the body know that we're doing if the body doesn't have any opposition then we can proceed if for some reason we need to do five for one council member or do two and a quarter for a council member.

Okay, Rosemary Worth and then Josh just to make things a little more complicated to throw up another idea is so many per year. You're allowed so many per year. So if it's four per year or six six per years which is every other month maybe in that way you you know depending on how the the calendar falls and Mr. Mayor I'd like to add one thing as well. I do appreciate this conversation. Obviously, we'll land

wherever the council wants because we support your town halls and we advocate for you all to do town halls because the people generally want to hear from you all, right? They, you know, and most of if you look at our um resident satisfaction survey, the part of um communication that we need to work on is for more time for people to talk to policy makers, right?

They really want to talk to the council members. Um so, we do appreciate you all doing the town halls. We want to support you all in that, but just be mindful of, you know, um we want to help you be able to get the message out and clarify it.

But staff also does in addition to your town halls meet regularly with civic leagues as well. Like probably every week there's a meeting for me to meet with a civic league to talk about a particular issue that's going on in in a particular district or sometimes I just want to talk about general vision about um the city budget and things like that as well. So, a lot of our departments

are always out as well meeting with um different civic leagues and different organizations.

Barbara, this conversation is going around.

Turn it on.

Turn on your mic. Sure it is.

Turn on your mic.

As I said, this is going around. I'm not sure where it is right now, but if you're talking about town halls, of course, I guess I'm the one who's been having the district repres the district meetings the longest. I've been doing it 20 years primarily because my district is half of the city and I can't begin to get around to all of these places individually uh because I'm so spread out and so I

think we, you know, when we're talking about town halls, are we talking about just using city property or would we be able to do things on private property otherwise? You know, if we're limiting the amount of time that we can get out to the public, that's pretty difficult. I I think this conversation is needs a lot more investigation before we make any decisions.

Mr. Mayor, I'm not hearing a restriction or restrain on the use of city property.

What I'm hearing is a use of city staff to staff the town halls, move into a quarterly model with creating appropriate exceptions to let the body know if we need to go past that. And if the body's okay with that, we do that.

But from my understanding, this the marketing support that you'll get from comms and the facility support that you'll get from the clerk's office will still remain. And council, if you wanted to have four town halls in your district in a given month, you could. It's just that one quarter you're allowed to have um staff support and staff briefings and staff presentations.

Okay.

Well, I I'd like to see all this in writing so we kind of see where it's going.

Okay. Uh Okay. Amelia Michael Worth.

Yes. Thanks, Patrick. I just wanted to ask too about um getting security at times because times have changed. Long ago, you would have town hall meetings, everybody's peaceful. Now we have where people yell out and so forth at times.

Um, how are you going to address something like that?

So, we do that now. Sergeant Ruby, and that's why we really advocate that council coordinate them through the clerk's office and my office primarily.

If you come to my office, we'll we'll start the process for you. If you go to the clerk's office, the clerk's office will start it for you. M but when you let us know, we communicate with Sergeant Ruby about the town hall and then he lets the precinct know and we try to definitely get you a presence from a officer or a deputy or at least a roaming patrol because we are aware that

at times you all become targeted for because of all different kinds of issues especially on some of the topics that you all speak about as well. So, we do put it we do try as much as possible to get you as much security for a safe um town hall when you're talking to the public and discussing issues. So, it is something that if you if you follow our process, we do talk to the police

department. Sergeant Ruby coordinates with the precincts and the different sergeants and lieutenants and captains to ensure that we get you all the support that you all need.

Thank you.

Okay. Uh work.

Thank you, Mayor. I just want to first take an opportunity to thank you Patrick and your staff and uh the clerk's office. Uh I've had 12 in my about to have the 12th uh town hall in my district um next month and it is a big effort to put it on to coordinate it to program it to select a location provide security. So it really is initially I didn't think anything about this. I just

you know in my role my first year but I do look forward to these meetings every quarter for a lot of reasons and um that being said so thank you and also staff who show up uh department heads that that provide great presentations. Uh but my question is if we go to quarterly is it um because I do often have two or three topics and so at least two topics I'd like for staff a staff presentation

or staff presence there and the third one I'll probably do something myself.

So, are we saying one or two per quarter? Two staff per quarter? I' I'd like to ask for two per quarter.

I I don't I don't think the council is saying a limit on that. Like, for example, if you're doing a quarterly one and you wanted to talk about three or four topics, right? I don't think the council's saying to limit that, you know, unless y'all are saying otherwise, you know.

Yeah. It's going to vary by each the target audience that you have and the germaine issues that you have to talk about. Uh another possibility that I used to use that they still have the precinct uh citizen v advisory groups.

That's a wonderful vehicle because already you got police and fire and uh health and human services, animal control goes to those things. Uh but once again I think the bottom line is you know just respect u you know we love our staff and you know they got families too.

Okay. So you will work with the city attorney's office and we'll we'll amend a policy a draft of the policy and send it to council for consideration.

Okay. Next.

Sorry.

If you if you don't mind, mayor, I think we need to to back to my initial point. it. I think it needs to be on paper what comes with the town hall and then the the council members can because I'm I'm a lot like uh I'm a lot like Dave in this in that I don't often need a lot of staff support but at the same time there are times when I do and I

think we need to understand clear and universally what resources are available so that we can best connect with the people we serve and make sure they have the resources they need to support those discussions. Mr. Mayor, we'll get that recirculated back to council. Tiffany will send that out.

Yeah. So, council has a a policy that you all adopted back in 2020 that y'all amended again, I think in 2023 that says sets the guidepost of it. And then a while back, probably about 2 or 3 years ago, the t um the communications office sent out some information on what level of marketing and support we provide as well, so we can update that and resend that to council accordingly.

El Barbara and that's wrapped. Let's wrap up.

Are you thinking that we are we're only talking about meetings on city property? I mean, would this prelude us from using a church or a private facility to have a public meeting just so we don't have staff there? I mean, we're kind of limiting our ability to meet with the public.

That's not what we're saying.

That's not what I'm saying.

Okay. I maybe I'm just missing what we are saying when we're talking about uh talking about having uh town halls.

No, ma'am. We're just saying that we're just saying that staff support, Miss Henley. We're not staff support. Yes, ma'am. We're not saying staff support. Okay. No, I wasn't I wasn't saying not that any building or any any city building you want to use is multiple times. It's just about what the staff is. And as as Michael just said, as long Patrick's going to give us a written a written uh write up as far as

it goes and we can look at it and decide then. But nobody's saying about how many times you can meet. Just how many times we're asking that group over there and the group behind me and the group over there to be at the meetings because they've got to have a life too.

I've always been very careful to not I know you have demand staff support except to have some information provided.

I just didn't want it to be confused.

I'm not saying anything about the buildings.

We have to clarify this.

Yep. It it will be clarified. Okay. Move on.

All right. Um honorary street or facility name in Michael. Was that you?

Yep. Um there's a lack of consistency about how these um honors are um conveyed and um and decided upon. And although I feel strongly that there are many many many many individuals throughout Virginia Beach history and and current who are deserving of recognitions. I have some concerns about kind of the way that it's um inconsistently applied. So, in other words, if you're if you're a

person that's politically connected or or um has had the opportunity to connect with a council member, then uh you may get a recognition and then there's a lot of quiet people who are doing incredible work and making historic and material contributions whose recognitions go whose contributions go unrecognized.

Um I think uh in many cases uh an appropriate recognition is a city council resolution or proclamation and I think we've done a good job of that. But then in some cases and and and none of that should should um should say that any of the people we've recognized are not worthy of those recognitions. I definitely think they are. It's just that for each one of those, I think there's probably a thousand others who

um are also deserving of that type of recognition who didn't receive it. Um, I was talking to this I hope you don't mind me saying this, Patrick, but I was talking to the city manager yesterday a little bit about this and you know, he said, for example, there are communities that would say um, in order to have a street or building name for you, you should be deceased for a minimum of 5 years.

And I actually don't necessarily think that's a bad policy because what it shows on one hand you want to give people their to to borrow an expression their flowers while they're they're alive and I I believe in that. Um, but then on the other hand, when you're making a permanent decision such as a building renaming or a street renaming or even an even as an honorary street renaming, I think um it would be wise to

to have kind of a period of um understanding. for example, and I if after a person's death in 5 years, if there's still a community impulse to name, then their contributions were significant and memorable and and and endurable.

Um, and and so I think we should consider that. Okay.

And I don't know that that's the sweet spot, but I think there should be kind of a matrix. And I also wonder if we could have, you know, a staff policy. I I'm not I don't have a specific thing in mind. What I kind of have in mind to to summarize it now is um maybe could we ask staff to make some policy proposals?

Okay. Yeah, Rosemary, I think we need I do think we need some criteria, you know, and if staff could work on that. I think you you did an CCSR cons concerning this. I'm not sure I agree. You have to be dead for five years. Well, I'm not saying I I'm just it's it's my turn to talk, but I don't particularly agree with that one. But I do think we need criteria and

u and I think that would make it a lot easier for everybody and especially we all know that people put pressure on us to do things and and we can say well look we you have to fulfill this criteria and and it's a consistency that I think we're all looking for. So I think it's a good idea except for that one item.

Okay Stacy.

Yeah, I and I agree and I agree there should be some time lapse. I mean, five years is good enough for the Hall of Fame. It should be good enough for city of Virginia Beach, but five years from the time that you're deceased. Uh we have people like recently Mr. Fine that you know, he's still very much with us and uh it was a wonderful thing to honor honor him. So, um, yeah, I I I

think we should have a time kind of lapse between active participation and, uh, doing something in honor. But, uh, yeah, I I I wouldn't want to see it based upon someone's passing.

Yeah.

Cash.

Yeah, I agree with that. I I I I don't want to minimize a person's effort and I don't want to give them their flowers and they're not here. I think that there needs to be a concept that is worked out by city staff that we as a city, the most caring um city um that we can show people their flowers while they are still alive. That is very important to me because then

that connects back to the youth and then ultimately we have a caring city that repopulates itself through the act of uh selfless uh service of caring and showing appreciation. Um and so I I would like to see staff create something that shows there has been a time period u but it's not considered only because of them being deceased. I very much in am in favor of giving people their flowers while they are still alive.

However, I do understand that in certain states that they have that. Okay, that's all I have to say on that that uh top.

Okay, Jennifer.

Thank you, mayor. I'm looking at the um report that's in our binder. So um there some of the the options to consider is the to I guess to both of your points it's the absence from public life whether through death or through retirement but that someone has made a significant contribution and they are no longer active in whatever that contribution is and I think perhaps the sweet spot staff needs because there's

there are options here but perhaps it's um which is also difficult but if you put a number on it that can be limiting but maybe a range of, you know, if you've been um absent from public life for x amount of time and you also fit this criteria where um they have historical significance, service significance, career significance of these different items. And then um um this is also specific to street naming.

I don't know if the same application would be to building naming or if you elevate is building more significant than a street and that would be a different set of criteria. But there is something to consider here. I think what's missing is um it's still so relative subjective. That's where our issue is. What's that sweet spot?

Okay, Patrick. And then I'll make a comment.

Mr. Mayor, staff can work on preparing a presentation and something for you all to react to. Understand it's not poured and concrete to kind of get y'all to a place that y'all can give us some feedback. Right. So, we gave y'all a list of options. We can carve down the options and come up with a recommended plan and brief you all on it and then get some guidance and feedback to ultimately lead towards a resolution

that you all may adopt. Um I would say um one thing that is important as well is that allowing some time after public life is or public participation is good because you allow to see if something comes up along the way that may change somebody's overall image and you probably also may even want to consider having an a process to resend things.

Like for example, you know, we've heard recently about folks with royal titles that have things have come out and things like that. If if we put somebody in a position and over time it comes back that they did something deplorable, you know, we would want a mechanism to trigger something if possible for council to consider calling that clawing that back. So we'll work on putting something together and draft and

briefing you all for consideration.

Okay. If I can say this, um, you know, first of all, you know, Michael, I appreciate, you know, bringing it forward and I think there's got to be some, you know, you know, some type of guidance and everything. Uh, but there's number of different way we honor people, whether it be, uh, businesses or Amelia had recognition, historical recognition uh, for African-American neighborhoods

and things. And there's two types of street signs that we have. Uh there are the type that are permanent. And I've been to dedications of uh two where police officers were killed and we formally named streets after them. And the other ones are the honorable ones uh like with Mr. Fine, which doesn't change a street address and that type of thing.

And I will say that uh you know due to the tenacity of cash uh Timberland's thing was a wellreceived thing in that particular neighborhood. I am bringing forward a name for a recognition in the f you know very short future. Uh but yeah I think at least for now um you know I don't want it to be a Bobby D decision. I wanted it to be a council decision. So when I bring it

We'll more details later. Uh but once again, you know, since I've been on city council, I I I can't really name more than six times. Uh you know, we did one for Martin Luther King, uh we did one for uh Andrew Fine, and there have been a you know, a couple other ones uh that are, you know, ones in um by by New Light and a few things. Yeah, I I don't see where

this is really a recurring problem, but once again, you know, I think every council person should at least, you know, you know, one of the things we included was council comments and and initiatives and things. And if somebody even has a notion to bring something forward, you can, you know, get the temperature tank taken. But once again, we can refine it over time. But can you know how many signs have we really done

in the last 10? How many? Any idea?

I I'm thinking no more than five than I' since I've been on council. You know, for the non-permanent ones, the c the ones that are named after uh officer Phil by Towood High School, you know, that was put in as a permanent sign. But I'm talking about the temporary ones that don't change street addresses. Uh but once again, you know, I think if we at least for now have a criteria that

you know, council has to be in consensus with it, you know, via a a formal resolution like we did with Mr. Fine. uh and you know I didn't want you we honored him while he was alive and you know and honoring his contributions but I think every council person should at least have the opportunity to bring it forward for discussion and but once I like the idea Patrick also uh that if

something happens along the way where uh the reputation gets tarnished we have a right to pull it back but it's a temporary sign and it's not a permanent address. Mhm.

Okay. So, can we would that be at least a path for now?

Sorry, mayor. I'm not clear what your what your direction is.

Okay, the direction is for now cuz I'm going to bring something forward soon.

Uh but once again, uh I'm not going to do it. Uh you know, but I want a full a resolution to go like we did with Mr.

Fine. So but you know at least right now under the criteria that we have now I would like the opportunity to at least you know bring it forward. But the thing is that you know I think if somebody has a concept about doing it in other words I I think the fear that you have and it's a legitimate one that somebody gets a $20,000 campaign check will you name the street after me. No, that's not

where we want to go. I think Timberland, you know, was an appropriate thing and I think it was neighborhood enhancing and neighborhood uniting, but you know, uh, you know, Cash brought that forward, uh, and we brought it down to, you know, to a great event. But, you know, every every these are unique things. We just don't want to give them away like candy.

And I think that's what you're saying.

Yeah. Mayor, if I could to put a finer point on it, I have a concern that these could be politicized.

Yeah.

And I'll stop. That's where I'll stop.

Yeah.

Um I think they could be politicized and and I also think that they could be proliferated in such a way that um is that we just have to think about the people we serve. I'm thinking about a um elementary school principal who served for decades in a community and yet has no street name for her. I'm thinking about civil rights leadership throughout history in Virginia Beach who broke barriers, integrated schools, faced

unspeakable challenges, and yet have no street name for them. I'm thinking about all the people who are left out of this process. Um, and I that's why I feel strongly that criteria should be um implemented. That doesn't mean in any way that any council member can bring something forward. I I I think mayor, you're the mayor of the city of Virginia Beach. I think you absolutely should bring forward the recognition that

you're thinking about. I also think at the same time there should be criteria.

Okay. But yeah, there's another also option here too. We have street uh not street markers but we have you know strategic plaques around the city too.

There are other options. And mayor, if I could, my point also is some of these renamings could have been proclamations and res not not not to speak about anyone specifically, but we can achieve an sub substantial and significant honoring of people's achievements through mechanisms that are already in place. Um, again, I'm, you know, I could rename District Three, no problem with

the amazing people who live there and um and and right now there's no policy to say otherwise.

Yeah, but Michael, by the same token, you know, this has not been, like I said, I can't think of that many times that has happened yet, but you know, I appreciate your caution, Cash. Yeah, I just want to follow up with um you know, this is why you were elected to be the district representative. Obviously, I don't want it to be a blanket to where it takes away the uniqueness of me

representing um or us representing our district. Each of us have unique things about our district that um are different. Um and so, i.e. For an example, Salem has the visual and performing arts academy. Well, when I've talked to most of my constituents who are working, when I tell them that we have an academy, um, sometimes if they haven't attended that school or they just moved here from

the military, when I tie in the name Timberland to the visual and performing arts, then it all makes sense. And so I think each district has a uniqueness about it that I don't want a this resolution or this um this policy to take away the uniqueness of our districts um because then we become one blanket um of of and we might as well be at large. So I I we need to be careful about this because

each district is unique. And so the reason why I tied and did the street naming was for the purpose to connect that we had the visual and performing arts academy in district 7. Thank you.

Okay. Good. All right. To be continued.

Okay. Patrick.

Yep. Mr. Mayor, we'll work on a presentation and we'll bring that forward for council to react to and give us some feedback if we hit the mark on that or if we need to make amendments and then thereafter we can bring forward any legislation council wants. Thanks for bringing it forward, Michael.

Um, yeah, just want to ask to do with the street naming where we did Martin Luther King in 2018. I was still on council, but what happens if one of the signs disappear? Are we able to at least have it replaced?

Yes. So, um, Council Member Dr. Ross Hammond, if a sign gets lost or replaced or stolen or vandalized, we will repair it, replace it, and it's all done within the city's budget. So, for example, if um the Timberland sign went down or something like that, since council passed and approved this, we would get another one created. Okay, that's what happened with Martin Luther King, one of

theirs on a corner of Virginia Beach Boulevard in New Town when they were re setting up the um that area for infrastructure.

I guess they had a ticket down and it has not been replaced.

Oh, it has not been replaced? No.

Well, okay. What's I'll talk to you offline and get the location and we'll get it replaced. Thank you.

Good.

Thank you.

Good conversation. What What's next?

All right, Mr. Mayor, we've got about a little less than 30 minutes left. Three topics left. So the next one is board appointments, district representatives.

So, it came up during our conversations that some of your boards have a representative from each district and other boards do not. And wanted uh one of the council members wanted to just raise the question, is that something you want to explore having district representatives um always appointed to different boards or task forces or commissions?

Cash. Yeah, I want to start this one because um coming on to council uh last year um what's connected to us is our planning commissioners, right? And the ideal is so that your planning commissioner reflects the same values of its elected uh elected leader or official. Um I'm concerned that we don't have that continuity and I'll give you an example. I have uh a representative on district 7 that I didn't appoint,

right? But yet that person is in a major position and in decision making. But yet sometimes we are at um complete u um sometimes how we come about to resolving answers um are different pathways right to say it the least. Um and so I'm I'm concerned about that. How can you have be the representative of district 7 yet your planning commissioner is different?

I mean, where did that come about and who staged that like that? Is that a policy? And has it always been a policy uh that your number two is elected or appointed appointed by the council member that may have been before you and you guys may have been total opposite of thinking patterns. So something needs to be either addressed or um I mean that when I was running for office, no one said, "Hey, you need to

also uh appoint uh your planning commissioner because that's a real important mechanism to how you run and operate your districts. And if you both are on two different wavelengths, then how do you bring consensus to that?

If they were on before you got on to council, so that's something I really want some clarity on.

Okay. Uh Jennifer, thank you, mayor. Um I didn't think this was the direction the the that appointment was going, but just at this point, I will say we're nonpartisan as the city council and our appointments are nonpartisan. I understand your meaning because we all still align with different political we're in different political parties locally but the function of the planning commission is to make decisions on land

use and applications and even in my district my planning commissioner we're not the same party but I talked with her and she had values that I thought would be good for the district in terms of what she um knew about the district and so um it's not a partisan thing so much as someone who's willing to hear applications, consider the code, consider the needs, uh, work well with the rest of the planning commission. Um,

some of it's continuity. So, some of us inherit people that because they have a term to serve and that's how continuity works. Um, and then it's your will of the elected officials that when time for appointment comes up, you can choose someone else. But it's not it's not ever rooted in partisanship so much as decisions based on code and training that they get.

Stacy.

Yeah, I agree with uh Jennifer that I think one, you know, I I I don't like the partisan divide sometimes, but um I think each of the appointments that are made are made to have an expiring date within your term of uh counsel. So if you're if you inherit somebody that you disagree with, you know, within your term of council, you're going to be able to re reappoint someone else in that

position and for those positions that are done by district for the most part.

So, um I I think that's I hear what you're saying, but I I I do I don't know that um being able to throw somebody off of a commission once you get elected is the right answer. And you know I just gota suck it up.

Let me let me just come back on this.

No. So Jennifer was in a position where she was able to appoint or see that person hear that information be while she's in the seat.

So So the appointment was open and and I get that. I'm all for that. But if this is these are serious positions like planning commission. I mean, that's a serious commission. And I'm not saying we don't when I see that person passing, we don't say hi. But the communication that I would like to have is something that I would like to have, for lack of a better word. And so, if I have to suck

it up and just take it, I don't know if that's the effective way of leadership in an organizational sense. In an organizational sense, you actually are allotted to a point one that you could work well even if you have different party ideals, but yet you work well when it comes to the function of your district. And so I like to work well with others. I have no problem whether they're political or not

political. I just need us to be on the same page. And if I didn't get a a decision in that coming into office, then it sets up where I I would like some protocols to be in place for newly elected um officials who now have a planning commissioner who um they may not see IDI but but maybe they have to have meetings or maybe they have to do something. If you don't have anything

like that written down, then what um what requirement would make them do it?

Okay. Uh I don't think I know I'm not sure what you're asking for is legal, Mark.

So, if what we're talking about is removal of a planning commissioner that's governed by state law, uh planning commissioners have a term of office that's in your code. And then the state code says that a planning commissioner can be removed for malfeasants. So short of that they are entitled a planning commissioner is entitled to serve out their term. And even though there might not be uh a

productive working relationship between a member of the council and the planning commissioner for that district, unless that arises to the level of malfeasants, which would be unlikely, there's no procedure for changing that council or that planning commissioner until the end of their term.

You can't do it legally.

So M and M Mr. Mayor just shifting it a little. I think the original comment was more about ensuring there's representation across districts on on different organizations um and not alignment necessarily with individual council.

We're going to go Worth Stacy and Josh.

Thank you mayor. I just want to follow up on that. So when we were uh six of us were elected to council in 2022. I think that's that was the first time with 101 districts. I think the decision was made to have the planning commission uh each council member appoint their respective district's representative and so my um representative termed off because he was retiring and so I was able to appoint mine but it's

really up to how long the district member their term is. And so I would just encourage you I think it should land use and planning is about as not should be as about as nonpartisan as anything. I I have no how that connects to to parties. I mean, potentially, but I think in general, it's not partisan and shouldn't be. But I would just encourage communication.

Stacy, and then and then just back to segueing into the next conversation, I do think that some of our commissions and and committees and boards should have citywide representation. And then the counterargument is, well, some of those folks don't aren't quote unquote stakeholders. Um, and so you need to have knowledge and experience um, on those commissions, but I think you also we also need diversity of opinion and

experience and geography. So I think we should strive for more diversity on our boards and commissions from around the city. So it's a tug tug of war, if you will. Thank you.

Yeah, Stacy and Josh. Well, we do have a number of the commissions that are appointed by district and you know, for instance, planning, which I love my planning commissioner, she's great.

Um, but um but there are a number of commissions say such as Bayfront Advisory where you know maybe only the uh you have to be live on the Bayfront area in order to be on the commission. I think that's a good policy to have. Um I'm not saying we shouldn't review.

Maybe some of the parks and wreck I think is done by um by district, which is good. Uh so maybe we might want to review uh on a case-byase basis if there's a reason to expand the district. But for the most part, I think we do. Uh it's it's pretty good.

Okay. Josh and Jennifer. Thank you, Mayor. Um, I would love to see a list of the I mean I can probably list them off in my mind or whatever, but the ones that that have district uh residency requirements versus not. Um and I think I think it makes good sense on the one hand to consciously make sure that um all of our boards and commissions and committees are um you know uh have have

broad participation from you know all points. Um but on the other side of it is you know we only have so many people who are willing and able to devote the amount of time and who can who who who you know there there isn't an endless supply of people. So like for example if we've got a vacancy in a particular council district and we're having trouble filling that vacancy and that

seat goes vacant um you know that that that's that's an issue. um especially when it's you know when it's a a discretionary board. Um but um yeah, I'd like to see a list before we make any decisions.

Okay, Jennifer and then Rosemary.

Thank you, Mayor. Yeah, my mind was going a little bit where Council Member Schulman went, which is um we have a number of boards that are more um you need to have a certain interest or certain professional background in order to pro provide input. the citywide boards. I think we have a good balance of district representation on boards that essentially function for um city-wide things and my um just to offer

to it the logistical issue. So like quorum. So sometimes we put ourselves in a position where some of these boards whether it's because of the district or it's because of the requirement um professional requirement or background that it it's difficult to fill the seats because people aren't applying from that background whatever it may be. and then the board can't function. So, I don't want to tie our

hands in a way where these boards aren't able to serve their purpose. Um, so I think there's a good balance, but it doesn't hurt to look at the list to ensure that we're getting as broad as representation as we can. Rosemary, there's been a lot of really good comments here and and and there there's a lot of boards like you take Medak for instance, you know, we you they really would like to have flag officers and

people like that and they may not be in every single district. Um I think when we talk about and we're looking for appointees when we go through everybody has an opportunity to put forward people from their for district and in a lot of these places and and we all seem to work pretty well as a group and are very accepting of each other's suggestions. So, I think in that way, you're able to get people in

your district appointed to some of these things, but it's it's not a onesizefits-all situation because some of them are are quite unique. And then there have been some boards that um there's one that we're probably going to dissolve very soon. We had a lot of trouble filling the vacancies. We just couldn't get the the interest up. So, it's it's a case-byase basis.

And let's close this out. And cash, let me just say this. You know, even on boards and commissions, um, you know, there's inherent personality conflicts. You know, Michael and I serve on one board for a long time. There are personality conflicts that happen. Okay. Um, you know, sometimes when personality thing, you know, have a, you know, one-on-one get together for a cup of coffee and, uh,

you know, establish that line of communication, at least smooth smooth the feathers a little bit. Okay. Okay.

Moving on.

And so I think the the small step will be to just provide council back a list of uh current appointments that have district representatives.

Yep. Okay. Um, so your last two items are kind of related. Oh, sorry. Um, district residency requirements or in the case of like I think um or really any residency or other kind of not not professional requirement I don't think but just locationational because bayfront to your point is somebody from the Bayront or beaches and waterways might be somebody who lives by the beach or I don't know.

All right, last two topics. Adding items to council's agenda and the timing, the scheduling of closed session and informal sessions to allow you to have more focus and time and not just be in meetings morning to night on Tuesdays.

All right, let me uh start with the um idea how how we got to where we are with adding items to the agenda. You know, cities do it different. Nor uh mayor's the gateway, that's it. Case closed. I never wanted to do that. Uh we've had incidents in the past. A lot of times the way we do things comes as the result of, you know, negative actions. And you know, prior to, especially when I first

became uh mayor, uh people would put stuff on the agenda about gun control, abortion, things of that nature, uh self-s serving budget items and things of that nature. Uh so we and uh you know, and then uh but one of the ways that I I thought was the fairest way to do it, you got two mechanisms. one, you just come and ask me, you know, directly and we can put it immediately rocket

docket it on to to the agenda. But the once again, if you disagreed with me that you would have to get two sponsors.

Now, what was the rationale behind that?

If you can't find two people to help you out, you're not going to get six. And it takes some, you know, frivolous type stuff. And you know, believe me, past councils, I'm not talking about this one at all, would bring forward some frivolous stuff. Now, the other thing is when we sit down to do uh agenda meetings, okay? You know, a lot of people don't like it when we start at

12:00. Correct. Okay. But once again, if we have an open door on you know you know people bringing forward things uh you know uh you know representative of you know Michael was talking about politic politicalization you know a constituency group you know there's certain groups like Lifenet and everything I think is a great idea to bring forward and uh you brought some folks over with the Cohen Foundation and

things like that it's educational that's it but you understand that we have x amount of time and we can't always predict.

Sometimes we'll slot something for 15 minutes and it will take an hour and 15 minutes. So we we try to keep a governor on that uh you know in terms of limiting what we do. Uh we had uh had a request for uh a group to put on the agenda because they got turned down for a sponsorship. Uh now these are the type of things that we can't bring forward because don't forget when we allow

things we set a precedent. Okay. And I'll be honest with you, you know, uh think about a year or so ago, uh I was asked to let a civic person talk during a uh meeting and it didn't work out. It just sets an ugly precedent that we have to, you know, respect time. So uh but once again uh you know I think what we're doing and now one of the other

thing is too um I was the one that started the council conversation initiatives and things if you have an advocacy position you're free to bring that forward at any time but you know but in terms of getting things on the agenda the quickest path just ask me I think maybe in my entire time as mayor I turned down five things because they were social issues that we're not gerain to the business of what city council can

do. But once again, if in fact you do disagree with me, just find two friends and you that way you're halfway to six and you know that type of thing. And I thought that was the fairest and uh you know best way to do things. But once again, you got to understand if you put something on the agenda, uh, you know, sometimes, how many times have we been enclosed lately where we've

been there for the better part of two hours. So once again, what we put on the agenda has to be judicious and, you know, thoughtful and, you know, maybe sometimes we have to bump it and not get it right away, but, you know, uh, there's no perfect process, but I can tell you in Norolk, you know, you got one gatekeeper, that's it. But here you got another path and everybody has an opportunity. Josh,

um totally agree, mayor. Um and and I think that um to your point about if you know if you can't get two, you're not going to get six, time is our most precious resource. Um and and I think uh the policy that we've had in place has served us well. And um one and the other thing is is close session agendas. my understanding any one of us could can bring anything and I think that is

really important to be able to preserve that because I think any one of us should be able to come and you know engage with our attorneys and seek legal advice about something that may or may not concern the body. So and and you know but once you know but once again like even close session agendas you know a lot of the times it's dictated to us you know there's legala applications

and you know please understand as we kind of semi does anybody else have any uh you know questions or concerns to me or whatever on getting on the agenda.

It's the simplest thing to do. Call Bobby D. You know 1800 Bobby D.

uh you know and uh but yeah but once again you know if but once again during an agenda thing we I if it's not a high priority we may have to bump bump it a se session or we actually can put it on a present any type of presentation on an informal day too. Okay Patrick Mr. Mayor, the next one um is close session. And some of you all have

reached out to me and asked why do we have the close session structure we have now where we can do properties and real estate and um procurements that need council approval on the voting Tuesdays and then we only have the bandwidth to do appointments on the second and fourth Tuesdays. And some folks wanted to know if it's possible to move that, you know.

Council member Ramic, I think you and I had this conversation as well, you know.

So I think the question is is that would council be open to allow for the second and fourth Tuesdays to be more than just appointments so that we can kind of smooth out some of those things because as some of you all may as you mentioned sometimes you got to start at 12 and then that leads for a long meeting and then by the time we get to close session

when you got to make as um Julie mentioned consequential irreversible decisions you have limited amount of time to do that. So would the council be open to legislation to allow for the second and fourth to be for just raise your hand if you'd be agreeable.

Mhm.

Okay.

What he was saying was you have close session on other days besides have closed sessions on the second and fourth Tuesdays and that gives us more time to Michael.

Thank you mayor. Well, in the just as a um complement to that, I think we need to contemplate adding a little bit more time even with may maybe we'll maybe this will resolve it, but I'm one and and I think everyone here shares this sentiment. I don't think I'm the only I'm sure I'm not the only one. You know, we talk about starting at noon as if it's, you know,

it's not the end of the world. uh to when we're making these lasting um consequential consequential decisions, we absolutely should have the time to um deliberate fully. Now, you know, in fair, I'll be in full disclosure, I've been accused of, you know, being verbose at times and and um say that isn't so and maybe that's true. Madam fair with your hands up.

Raise your hands if you agree with Michael.

But I was also sent here gratefully to be elected by the people of this amazing city three times to ensure that the policies that are being contemplated here are working for them. And I don't really make apologies for seeking to understand those policies, for articulating my analysis of those policies, and for taking the time that I need to make sure that those decisions are in their interest. And I don't like

being rushed uh to make a decision. And this is not don't take it as a criticism because I know I understand mayor is in the unique and challenging position of having to manage the calendar or manage the time. And so I I don't mean it as any any kind of swipe at you, mayor. I just think that there are many I can think of a long list of times. Am I being verbose now?

Gee, I'm sorry, Michael. What' you say?

I could think of a long list of occasions when I have felt rushed and I and I know others have felt rushed um either to make a decision or to move on to another topic.

And I think we need more time.

Okay. But Mike, I'll address that.

Patrick first.

Mr. Mayor, Amanda wants to say something, but before um you before you go to Amanda Mayor, um Council Member Beluchcci, I I think council should never feel rushed. There's if there's ever something that has to happen today, we'll let you know. But the best thing to do is take the time. For example, one of the ones that we took in close session, I think everybody agreed on it was a lot of information. Let's come

back next Tuesday after everybody kind of thinks about it and then make and then determine where we want to go. Then always feel free to hit the pause button because you're absolutely right. These are consequential and a lot of times um revenue driven and budget driven impacts and you should take as much time as you need to get to those decisions. But Mayor Amanda wanted to speak and go

ahead. So, mayor and members of council, um, thank you. But I just wanted to make sure that um we carved out that time uh on what we would consider really the workshop days to go into close session for appointments because exactly for this reason. More often than not, the the things that were consequential that you all needed to be deciding to vote on took more time and appointments were

either bumped or quickly um discussed and so we I requested that we carve out those second and fourth Tuesdays so we could always have time to address the important um disc you all have the important discussions. around the table about appointments. So, I just want to make sure that um we're going to continue to carve out that time because these are boards and commissions and these appointments represent you all as

a as a body. So, just want to make sure that we're not going to um bump bump that time.

And you know, let me just say, Michael, you know, I apologize once again, but how many people at this table got this from me over time? Okay. U and I get the text uh yeah uh come in from Patrick. Uh but you know part of the thing I think by having it on Tuesday and Thursday we have the latitude of time. I don't have that hard break at 6:00 and that's what

we're doing. Uh and then if if something and if it's 5:30 and we and uh the city attorney has a couple major things that we have to hear about. The other option is that we got to come back after uh you know the meeting. But I can tell you over a number of times that you know you know Patrick and I would make some calls and bump things you know but once

again you know uh once we kind of predict something will take a half an hour and sometimes we'll go two hours.

So it's a time management thing. It's not a personal thing. And like I said, give me a dollar for everybody have gun like this, too.

Yeah.

Oh, oops.

Okay. Go ahead.

Sorry, mayor. That's not the That's not the point I was making. Um cuz I don't I have no fault. I know this a difficult position. Um the point that I'm making is I think we need more time in general so that we and and also while I have the opportunity Amanda is absolutely right because I was one of those who was getting frustrated because people who we needed to appoint to boards and

commissions we weren't able to get to that part of it and then we would have to say well and we sometimes we often needed them on those boards and commissions and and actually the cadence that's been developed has been very effective in making sure we're being able to get people appointed to those boards in a efficient and timely manner. I just think we need to spend more time. I don't think it's that

that's all. I think we need to schedule whatever it is. If it takes sometimes a council member will speak for a half an hour on a topic and and you know that I've seen it happen many times. Um and then everyone else is rushed and so um you know we just I think we just need more time. I agree Mark.

So, this is certainly council's prerogative, and I I don't um I don't in any way want to suggest that that I'm disagreeing with you, but what I do want to suggest is in furtherance of the clerk's point, you know, we do have a legal mechanism to take up things other than appointments on those second and fourth Tuesdays, and that is the calling of the special meeting and that's, you

know, that's not that difficult a task when there are items that you do need to take up that you don't want to have a 6:00 deadline for.

We have, and I think we've done it probably a half dozen times in the last year, done that done that special meeting call so you could add those things to your closed agenda.

But by doing it that way, you are still protecting for the balance of those days the time that you need with the clerk to make those appointments. So, I just wanted to point out that, you know, there is still a way to accomplish both goals here that you might want to consider rather than changing the code to specifically allow non um nonappoint items on your second and fourth Tuesday as a matter of course.

Yeah. Oh, let's go Patrick and then Hutch and then Barbara.

Okay. So, Mr. Mayor, I was going to say I mean I think really if council is okay with that, we'll just probably start to more um you utilize the mayor's authority to call a special session for for close more than appointments on the second and fourth. Right. So, I think this council, we discussed it. It seems like there's support to that idea. So, we we're probably going to start doing

it more often, right? rather than having six close session items or eight sometimes on that Tuesday, we might yeah, we might put four on and then move the other four over there and that I think Mr. Beluchcci will help with your concern as well and then kind of smooth out thing and give councils more time and then to Mark's point still keep appointments as primary on two and four week.

Okay, Hutch, Barbara and uh Amelia.

So I have a just another I'm good with that. Another suggestion is that on the second and fourth we do the appointments first and then well and then and then that leaves us the time because sometimes we we don't pay attention to the timekeeper. You know what I mean? That's we're noting it, you know? So that way to me it's still the priority. I also was going to say and this is a

compliment Amanda she she's no wallflower. So if she feels like it's not happening the way it needs to be, she'll speak up and we can make more appropriate time for her or do the special session.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

And that's why and that's why we got the city clerk form of government.

Barbara, uh just to comment on other items in the closed sessions, I'm very uncomfortable because we don't have advanced information. we don't have a lot of information a and we are sometimes asked many times asked to give direction when we don't have all of the information and I I'm very uncomfortable with our closed sessions u many times um and if we are giving direction in close session that means

we're giving direction without any input from the public as well so I really think we need to be careful with what we do in close session Okay, Barbara, you know, let me just say this. Uh, the reason it's difficult to give out information before because the information that is be given out is privileged and protected by law and there are certain criteria that have to be and I'll tell you what, uh, Mark

Styles has been a magnificent gatekeeper about what's allowed to be. He's the referee with the whistle and the and the penalty flag, you know, when it comes to people starting to stray. And the other thing is a lot of the information we got is not ready for public consumption yet because we don't have a direction on it.

Once we get the direction on it, we always get it out to the public. Okay.

Millia.

Yes. And I wanted to say as a compliment to our council right now, you know, many years we've had please no leaks. It has changed. We have a group that works together what we do in close session has remained in close session. So I wanted to congratulate all of our council members on making a great effort because that helps makes us a good council.

Thank you. And I think you know to kind of close out uh a little bit then I'll let you have the you know final say Julie uh you know I think by expanding the scope to Tuesday and Thursday gives us latitude uh you know once again you know you know you know the guy with the gavl is also the timekeeper and by law and you know we have to be out at our chairs at 6:00

and I think what was the last uh close session we eight items nine nine items on the section and like I said it depends on it's rough to calculate the thing. So I think in fairness and you know I agree with Michael if we do it in the afternoon if we're there till 8:00 at night then we're there 8:00 at night.

Yeah you know Jennifer just for the clerk and for the city attorney and for the city manager to clarify the second and fourth Tuesday not Tuesday and Thursday. Yes.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Thank you, Jennifer.

All right.

Okay. But but yeah, you know, uh yeah, what you said, my ADHD is in hyperdrive.

What can I tell you? No, but you know what I mean. The second and third, uh you know, we just did a special meeting and second.

Yeah.

Yeah. What what I said, don't worry about it. It's way past noon. Yeah.

Second and yeah, you know what I'm talking about.

All right, council member Remmit.

Yeah, thank you, Julia. Thank you, Mayor. If I could take this opportunity, I'll be real quick. I don't want to prolong our meeting, but I want to take this opportunity because there was an article in the paper yesterday about the Museum of Contemporary Art and it's in the relocation and our decision to backfill that soon to be vacant building. And I'll kind of restate what was said in

the pilot and that is um as we all know uh nine proposals were offered to city council uh by nine different applicants for that. We reviewed all nine proposals did not make a decision um for various incundury reasons. Um and so we're going to move forward from here. Um, I guess we can say that uh proposals are still open and welcome uh by the council, but we will soon be uh convening a a study

group or a panel or a blue ribbon panel or some group of citizens and and just take this a step further, but we don't want to make a bad decision and we don't want to rush into a decision. if I could quote several of you all's comments and I think um we'll end up in the right spot um I think as a body but u just want to put all that out there because

it we got a letter from the resort advisory commission so we're you're going to take steps thank you we'll we'll take the steps that we need to do it right we're not going to be rushed by anybody okay Mr. Mayor, we've concluded what we need to do and I think if I made any lengthy comments, you'd all get swarming and just be ready to leave. So, I would say

thank you for it's um you've done a lot of hard work, a lot of gotten a lot of great information. It's going to really help set the city manager, the budget staff, and the whole team up for a good budget for you all. And appreciate your Joey. Thank you and your team.

Outstanding.

Robert lunch is available and do you need to adjourn?

Okay, we are ajourned.